Magnatek 6345 Not charging batteries.

[moonlitcoyote]

So as the title states my Magnatek 6300 A series 6345 serial number wont charge my batteries. Everything else about it seems to be working, the fan runs in it, I have power to everything BUT my batteries are not charging. I have no idea where to start to troubleshoot this and need help as my water heater and fridge wont work without 12v power.

[Oz]

Link to manual & schematics to start with


http://www.hayseed.net/~jpk5lad/RV%20Information/MagnaTek%20Pwr%20Converter/RV%20Binder1.pdf

[Mr. T]

I had similar problems you are experiencing.  I found out that the wire attached to the positive post of the battery going to the converter had worked loose.  This caused the batteries to die a slow death.  However, tightening the wire didn't solve all problems.  The battery's had to be charged up before the converter would work.  A continuous loop type of thing.

Before I would buy a new system, I would charge the batteries to full strength.  I would undo and then tighten all wires going to the batteries.  This way, you don't have to know which one goes to the converter.

I am a big believer in doing the simple stuff first.

Don

[moonlitcoyote]

Thank you Mark for the schematics.

Thank you Mr.T I will do that.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

MJ's Magnetek 6345 converter has gone bad.

Symptoms:
If battery was charged up, all DC in coach worked ok when not connected to shore power
Battery was not charging while on shore power.
While on shore power, 12VDC in rig still went low to the point fridge and furnace would not work. Same indications as a low battery when not on shore power.
AC outlets on same AC circuit breaker as converter worked OK (AC power available to converter)

This model converter uses a 12VDC transfer relay with an independent battery charger circuit. 

When converter is ON, transfer relay is energized and converter output is routed through relay to coach DC fuse panel.  The converter charger is on and charges the battery however, with the transfer relay energized the battery is not connected to the coach circuits.

When the converter is OFF (no AC power source) the transfer relay is de-energized and battery output is routed through relay to coach DC fuse panel. When the converter section goes bad, the transfer relay never energizes therefore the battery is always connected to the DC fuse panel which can drain the battery down to 0 VDC depending on coach condition.

Newer power distribution centers do not use a transfer relay.  The converter output, battery, and DC fuse panel are connected in parallel.  Modern setups also normally use a modern 3 stage charger. When shore power is connected, the output voltage of a 3 stage converter/charger will be one of three values: 13.2VDC (no coach loads),  13.6VDC (normal coach loads in use), or 14.2VDC (battery charge boost mode when battery has been discharged a lot [boondocking]).  If on shore power and the voltage is below 13VDC then the converter is not working.

Dave

[kattkisson]

One thing that has not been mentioned.  If you have no 12volt at all when not plugged into shore power(not even a dim glow on the lights) at least Winnebago put a 30 amp fuse on the line from the batteries to the Magantek.  Mine is under the swing up dash beside the chassis fuse panel.  It is an inline fuse holder on a 10 gauge wire and is not marked nor noted in the owners manual.

[pvoth1111]

I would check the batteries with a hydrometer and insure they have water..........

And here's a little trick to check your batteries.....I hate to give it away.....use caution.....wear safety glasses and for god sakes don't have any open flames around.....remove the battery and hook it up to a regular battery charger......on full boost.....with the covers off view each of the cells.....they all should be boiling uh bubbling......if any cells don't bubble even one cell...... that battery is crap.....remember that's hydrogen gas and its bad.....think Hindenburg......

[moonlitcoyote]

Thanks pvoth, My husband always removes the covers when he charges them to make sure they are bubbling.

My problem wasnt that I had no 12v. All my lights and everything worked just fine, but for some reason that I do not undertand the coach was running directly off the batteries intead of going through the converter which drained my batteries because the converter isnt working so it's not charging my batteries. At least that the way I understand it.

So my solution s soon as the money is available is this..

Replacing my converter with PD 4645 from best converter

http://www.bestconverter.com/PD4645-45-Amp-Converter-Upgrade-Section_p_351.html#.VDcomPldWSp


And using these instructions to complete the job..

http://www.ourelkhorn.itgo.com/convert.htm

[pvoth1111]

The 'coach' runs off the battery.....that is as far as the 12 volt lights and some other systems require it.....the converter just keeps the batteries charged and ready for use......connections are important and there are several "chemical products that may help or enhance this conductivity and reduce oxidation.....

I have added a volt meter at the location of an old lighting fixture that I don't use.....this always allows me to "at a glance"...."see" how my batteries are doing....

As I fulltime my batteries do very little except my lights....but I keep my eye on them at all times....
I also carry an extra converter......

Once a month I check the batteries with the hydrometer.......it is the tool that knows what health of the batteries are...

Always start with connections with DC circuits.....

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

The 'coach' runs off the battery.

MJ's Magnetek 6345 does not when on shore power.  The battery is isolated from the coach circuits by the transfer relay when on shore power.  Only the charger circuit is connected to the battery when on shore power. A common design used by Magnetek and Progressive Dynamics in the 70's and early 80's.

Dave

[pvoth1111]

This is why we all should contribute to Dave's 401k....I am only (barely) and expert on my coach......Dave keeps us all honest.....Kudos.

[TerryH]

the converter just keeps the batteries charged and ready for use.

Not quite "just". It also converts 120vdc to 12vac and, depending on the model of converter charges batteries at the same time - and at desired stages - provided it is plugged into shore power and working as built.

Inverter and converter are commonly mixed up for what they actually do.

MJ - if you are going to upgrade, personally I would highly recommend eliminating your Magnetek 6345  and cost/installation ease wise going with the PD Upgrade for the 6345. Also, do consider Best Converter. Not only are they a company that deals with these specific products, but if you email Randy/etal you will likely get honest info re your converter problems and best case suggestions for dealing with your particular problems at the lowest cost. My opinion only.

FYI Magnetek's 6300/6400 series, particularly the 6345 is well known and well documented for problems, including fires. Some of the above is based on personal experience.
Again, FYI Google Magnetek 6345.

I did follow somewhat the conversation last night on the gearbox, and Mark's, Dave's, Mike's, etc. etc.etc.'s suggestions and info have gone into my converter file. Good stuff.

Terry

[kattkisson]

I upgraded to the PD unit.  A lot less "noise" in the current.  Better TV picture because not as much noise going into antenna amplifier. Tends to run cooler than the old unit

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

MJ purchased a 6 amp max constant voltage Battery Charger that shuts off if the maximum rate (6 amps) is drawn for 12hrs.  With the batteries badly discharged and the fridge pulling around 3 amps (4 amp fuse) for the control board, that only left 3 amps to charge the battery with. 
Two 114AH batteries in parallel = 228AH.
25% capacity = 57AH
If the charger was able to supply the full 6 amps it would take around 6 hours to restore the missing 171AH.  This is due to current ramp down and other charging losses,
With only 3 amps available, as in MJ's case, it will take at least 12 or more hours to restore the battery.
MJ now has to do some fancy footwork using her jeep alternator and the battery charger plus battery swapping every 12hrs in order to get by for a week or so until she can replace/upgrade the Magnetek converter with a modern 3 stage PD 4645.

The moral of this story:
If you ever get in a situation like this where you need to use a battery charger to get by until converter repairs are accomplished, make sure you get a charger that can put out at least 25 amps.

Side note regarding the Magnetek 6345:
When connected to shore power the battery is isolated from the coach by the transfer relay.  In this mode, the only thing connected to the battery is the printed circuit board charging circuit.  That charger has only a 5.5 amp output capability.  So, if you have been been boondocking and are connecting up to shore power to recharge the battery, it can take around 4- 6 hours to do that at 5.5 amp charger output depending on how low the battery is.
Many 70's through mid to late 80's converter/Power Centers (Magnetek and PD) worked this way.  Even the old PD that came in my 78 worked this way (since replaced with a modern PD9265 3 stage converter and new power center.)

Dave
PS: I do like my Black and Decker BC40EWB 40 amp smart (3 stage) charger with 110 amp engine start.  More power! but I think it is only available used now.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

A little enhanced version

    This write up is in relation to the electrical drawing on pdf page 16 of "RV Binde1.pdf"
   
    Removal;

   
• Disconnect all power sources as outlined on page (1) of this manual. (Shore Power/Genny/12VDC Battery bank)
• Remove front panel by removing (4) screws at bottom of panel.
• Remove AC power section cover by removing (2) screws.
• Disconnect the neutral (white) converter feed wire from distribution block, and hot (black) wire from AC main breaker. Pull wires thru the hole at the bottom left of the AC power section.
• Remove the (2) DC power distribution board mounting screws.
• Pull the DC board outward and remove the blue wire (B+ from old converter) from the top of the board, and red (Battery B+ from DC board to old converter) and white (ground from old converter) wires from the BACK side of the board. Pull wires thru the hole at the bottom right of the DC power section.
• Remove red wire (from battery B+ terminal) from the FRONT of the old DC board, and reconnect to the terminal labeled "BATT POS+" on the new DC board. Remove the white wire from the FRONT of the old DC board, and reconnect to the terminal labeled "BATT NEG-" on the new DC board. Transfer branch circuit wiring in this same fashion.
• Remove the (4) screws securing the old converter assembly to power center, and remove converter assembly.
  
      Installation;
• Slide new converter into power center. Route black/white/green wire-set from new converter into AC power section, and black/white from new converter wire-pair into DC section. Secure using (4) screws removed in step #8.
• In the AC power section, connect new converter neutral (white) wire to neutral distribution block, and converter ground (green) wire to ground bar. Connect hot (black) wire to AC main breaker.
• Replace AC power section cover and secure using (2) screws removed in step #3.
• In the DC power section, route new converter DC wires behind new DC power distribution board. Connect new converter power (black) wire to the new DC power distribution board terminal labeled "CONV POS+". Connect the negative (white) wire to the DC board terminal labeled "CONV NEG-".
• Making sure new DC feed wires remain behind DC board, secure DC board to power center using (2) screws removed in step #5.
• Connect 4-pin header on DC board to 4-pin header on converter assembly using 4-wire harness (included).
• Replace power center cover using (4) screws provided with kit.
• Transfer DC Distribution branch circuit information to the new label provided with the retrofit kit, and adhere label over existing label on the inside of the power center cover. Affix green Replacement Notice label in any unused area of the power center cover.

Regarding the Wizard Mode stuff.  It is all described at the rear of the product manual including the DC board built in monitoring light and manual selection button.
http://www.progressivedyn.com/4600_operation_guide.pdf

Dave

[moonlitcoyote]

I installed my new converter about 5.5 hours ago now and so far no smoke or fire so maybe I did it right. Following are some pictures.


Here is what I started with: Magnatek 6345







The first problem I ran into was these clamps on the back of the box. I did not have enough tail on the wires inside the box so I had to feed more through the clamps and it took quite some doing to figure out how to undo the clamps and then harder to get my hands inside the back to undo the clamps.







After I got the clamps undone and fed more wire into the box I ran into my next problem.. All the wires in my old converter were connected with screws.. The battery and converter wires in the new box take an Allen wrench. A 5/32 to be exact, the ONE size I did not have(went missing somewhere).









Here you can see Mikey thought it would be fun to watch mommy getting dirty and frustrated

[moonlitcoyote]

Now it was time for the install...

Here is what I replaced/upgraded to ..The actual number of it is PD 4645







I started by connecting the black, white and green wires to the AC side of the converter..







Next I moved all the DC wires over to the new DC board that came with the converter..









Then I installed the fuses and put the covers back on...





And thats it, I now have a new converter.


I also exchanged my bad battery at walmart for a free replacement since it was under 2 years old. All together it took 2.5 hours to make the switch and 30 minutes of that was asking around the RV park for an allen wrench.

[pvoth1111]

 
Awesome job

[moonlitcoyote]

Thank you, I was quite proud of myself when I plugged in the shore power and everything worked and there was no popping, sparks or flames. I couldnt have done it without this wonderful site though. So much good help right at your fingertips. .. Well its mostly good help, lol

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Great job!




Only two questions.
I did not see you mention the red wire from the battery
Did you make sure you are seeing charging voltage at the battery?

Dave

[moonlitcoyote]

What red wire from the battery Dave? My bat+ wire is the black wire on the top left under that Allen screw I had a time with and the Bat- is the green wire on the right side right before the white wire.

I didnt get any photos or steps in moving those wires because I actually did them after everything else was done since I had to find an Allen wench to fit it.

[TerryH]

Pics. are great MJ. Glad to see you upgraded.

Excellent work.

Terry

[M & J]

I knew you could do it. Congratulations young lady.

[sasktrini]

Most excellent!  I love it when a plan comes together!  Let us know how your batteries respond to charging!

[eXodus]

also retired my 6345 today. I just removed the AC cables and let the it where it is. Without AC it is just transferring the 12V from the batteries. Maybe someday I remove it. But so it's nice to have a Fail safe option.

I got a WFCO 9855 for a good price and installed it directly in the battery bay under the stairs. It is fitting really nice, and since the bay is ventilated I hope this thing should not get to warm. I will try and see.

I didn't wanted to use the location of the Magnatek, It's directly under the stove, about 30 feet of cable away from the batteries, and there are at least two solenoids to disconnect the coach batteries in between, which makes the charging not better.

Now I got the 55amp charger with 3 feet of AWG 2 cables directly in the bay. So there should be no voltage drop at all.