Re: 440-3 Cracked cylinder head replacement

[JDxeper]

Found this roaming around,May be of interest.
http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm
Be sure to scroll tothe bottom of the article for additional reading on part and casting numbers.

[LJ-TJ]

Well SMALL change in game plan. I've just been informed that I'm not going to write off the Winnie project. I'm not sure what that means as I'm out of ideas and talent. Bad spot to be in but the wife says not happening. Some of you guys should have a wife like mine. Still doesn't solve my problem. I guess I have to find some way to find a 440 head with cooling channels for the small spark plugs and that's all I know. Is it a truck engine or a car engine, is it a heavy truck engine or a light truck engine, do the casting numbers on the block mean anything or not, do the head casting numbers mean anything, for example if I find a block with the same block casting numbers as mine and the head casting numbers the same as mine mean the heads are the same as mine. I don't no any more? Any if anybody's interested I'll pop in now and then and let ya know what's happening. However guys THANKS for all your help to date. Your time and ideas and suggestions have been invaluable and very much appreciated.   i??  D:oH! 

[JDxeper]

Found this info
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mopar Head Casting Numbers 1959-1978
RB/B, LA Cylinder Head Casting Numbers
The casting numbers for most RB, B, and LA heads are found in two places. On the underside of the head on an intake runner, and under the valve cover on an intake runner.

Casting Number Under Valve Cover on Intake Runner. Casting Number on the Underside of Head on Intake Runner.

LA Engine Cylinder Heads Casting Numbers

Casting Number Engine CID Year Intake Exhaust
2465315 273 1964-65 1.78 1.50
2536178 273 1966 1.78 1.50
2658920 273 1967 1.78 1.50
2843675 273 1968-69 1.78 1.50
2658920 318 1967 1.78 1.50
2658234 318 1967 1.78 1.50
2843675 318 1968-74 1.78 1.50
3769973 318 1975-83 1.78 1.50
4027163 318 1977-86 1.78 1.50
4027593 318 1977-84 1.78 1.50
4323302 318 Fast Burn 1985-86 1.78 1.50
4323345 318 Police 1983-86 1.78 1.50
2531894 340 1968-70 2.02 1.60
3418915 340TA 1970 2.02 1.60
3418915 340 1971-72 1.88 1.60
3671587 340 1973 1.88 1.60
3418915 360 1970-72 1.88 1.60
3671587 360 1973-74 1.88 1.60
3769974 360 1975-76 1.88 1.60
3671587 360 1976 1.88 1.60
4027569 360 1977-86 1.88 1.60
RB/B Engine Cylinder Heads Casting Numbers
Casting Number Engine CID Year Intake Exhaust
4021051 360 1977-86 1.88 1.60
1737637 361 1958-59 1.94 1.60
1944705 361 1958-59 1.94 1.60
1737637 383 1960 1.94 1.60
2206324 361/383/413 1961-62 2.08 1.60
2206924 361/383/413 1961-62 2.08 1.60
2463200 361/383/413 1963 2.08 1.60
2406516 361/383 1964-67 2.08 1.60
2402286 413 Max Wedge 1962 2.08 1.88
2463209 426 Max Wedge 1963 2.08 1.88
2406518 426 Max Wedge 1964 2.08 1.88
2406158 440 1967 2.08 1.60
2780915 440HP 1967 2.08 1.74
2843906 383/440 1968-70 2.08 1.74
2951250 440 1968 2.08 1.74
3462346 383/400/440 1971-72 2.08 1.74
3462346 400/440 1973 2.08 1.74
3751213 400/440 Motor Home 1973 2.08 1.74
3769902 400/440 1974 2.08 1.74
3769975 400/440 1975 2.08 1.74
4006452 400/440 1976-78 2.08 1.74
Hemi Engine Cylinder Heads Casting Numbers
Casting Number Engine CID Year Intake Exhaust
2468016 426 Hemi 1964 2.25 1.94
2531110 426 Hemi (SS) - Aluminum 1965 2.25 1.94
2780559 426 Hemi 1966-71 2.25 1.94 
     

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

TJ,
Please call the people at 440Source.com (661-951-3700)
http://www.440source.com

They speak all things 440.  I am reasonably sure they can give you which casting numbers you can use on your 440-3.  This simple call should give you a clear path to head down.  Some of the web info is incomplete or appears it may be inaccurate so, thats why I am nudging you towards them.

Dave

[LJ-TJ]

OK, I'll giver  a shot. Thanks Dave. I guess by the look of things I'm not going to be allowed to quite on this project.  D:oH!

[LJ-TJ]

Here's the photo of the head. The cast number is 3769902

[LJ-TJ]

If you look at the bottom of the head on each side of the spark plug holes you'll see two smaller holes. They are the ports for the coollent to cool the smaller plugs

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

2 of these 3 heads are what you are looking for
http://www.reds-vintage-parts.com/index2.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=41&category_id=21&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=100001

Dave

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

$75 Get a picture to see if it is correct
http://www.classicmoparforum.com/cleaning-out-garage-parts-4-sale/

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Found an interesting thread about MH heads  Seems like there are at least 3 casting numbers however for at least 2 of them each number comes in a auto and a MH flavor

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=QuestionAnswer&Number=6912424&Searchpage=1&Main=6912319&Words=+dem440c&topic=&Search=true

Ya gotta have the small peanut plugs and the "extra" cooling holes around the plug.

Dave

[ibdilbert01]

Ad says the heads need rebuilt, and we still don't know what caused the engine to overheat to begin with, let alone what other damage was done to the engine that hasn't been found yet.   If strapped for cash, sticking the 318 with its mated tranny in her would cost next to nothing, just time.

[Arberg0]

HI

is the 318 your thinking of the one from one that went on fire if so i agree after all i know its a smaller motor but we know its good

 

[Elandan2]

I've been away for a few days but I am reading this thread with interest.  Our Elandan II has a car engine in it, with car heads and we have never had any overheating problems.  Remember, we live in the middle of British Columbia and this rig, at 14000 lbs. loaded for travel, climbs 11% grades with no trouble and makes the trip from BC to Ontario each summer with no cooling problems.  Although there will be many naysayers, IMO you can use car heads as long as your radiator is in good condition.  Rick

[LJ-TJ]

*?%(@#!!  Are you kidding me, are you kidding me  So I'm told and understand that the motorhome 440 had the cooling journal in the heads so I go out and buy a 440 out of a 1973 Winnebago right. Got it covered. Piece of Cake, got my head problem solved. NOT! Now I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack but when I got both blocks in front of me and both heads in front of me this should be pretty easy to figure out right? So I pull the heads on the new engine and guess what. NO cooling journals  I pull the head gasket and guess what? Cooling journals.  Yes the new head has the bigger ( Fatter ) plugs. So Now What?

[Elandan2]

TJ, as I said in my previous post, we have been running a 440 engine from a 1973 Newport Custom since 1985.  I just had the heads done over this winter after 65000 miles.  There were two valves that were burnt due to valve seat recession.  These engines were never meant to run on unleaded fuel and the induction hardened seat areas of the head are not very thick, so after a valve job when the engine was put in and 26 years of travel with unleaded fuel, it was time to do them over with new seats installed. 

Another way to look at this is what could you do with a 440 pickup truck (no extra cooling in the head), properly equipped trucks could be up to 16000 lbs. or more total weight and the engine did just fine.  The 440 industrial engine was designed for stationary and marine applications, a real test for any engine. Dodge had them so they installed them in the motorhome chassis. 

For the most part, with the weight of our rigs, a standard 440 will perform for many years with no problem.  Get your new heads freshened up and throw them back on, I think you will pleased with the results.  Rick

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

TJ,
I have a good hunch you can use the heads (larger plugs) from that 73.   Just like the one you just bought did.  However, to get a better feel for the answer to that question is the reason I recommended you call 440Source.   In reading their documentation I get the impression they have been using MH blocks with larger plug performance heads.  The MH block has more "meat" built into it so it is a stronger block.  They should be able to answer your questions from experience rather than using our best guess approach.

I know many would like to know why this happened in the first place but if I recall correctly your water temp guage did not work and you really do not know when this problem started happening (overtemp).  As such, you may never know what the reason was.  But I bet you will keep a working guage in there from now on. 

Dave

[ibdilbert01]

I know many would like to know why this happened in the first place but if I recall correctly your water temp guage did not work and you really do not know when this problem started happening (overtemp).  As such, you may never know what the reason was.

Still need to be cautious and careful, not knowing the reason increases the odds of it happening again.   Hm?

[LJ-TJ]

Hi everyone -- this is the wife replying -- I know, I know, I'm the one who won't give up, and TJ is pulling his hair out on my behalf so I owe him big time.  Dave, you're a great help in this -- I'm preparing a detailed email with pix to send to 440source after TJ calls them in the morning.

Re the overheating issue:  TJ may not look at the temp gauge but I watch the gauges like a hawk when I'm behind the wheel, and can tell you that until we replaced the thermostat as the first step towards diagnosing the "heater blowing nothing but cool air" problem, the engine temp gauge always read within the normal range.  TJ assumes it had never worked, but I had always seen movement at the gauge, as I said,  in the normal range.  The moment of the big blowup he says he saw the gauge buried on hot.  I'm assuming the thermostat we installed immediately prior to this was faulty and blocked coolant circulation between the engine and radiator.  I believe the cabin heater issue was resolved when we found the valve/switch at the hose inlet stripped and replaced it with one salvaged from one of our parts bagos.

Question:  can we run the engine without no thermostat for testing purposes?  My limited engine knowledge suggests that no thermostat means free flow of coolant throughout the engine/ rad circulation system.

Thanks to everyone for keeping our spirits up.

Blue skies -- LJ

[Elandan2]

LJ, the short answer is yes, you can try it without a thermostat for testing, but you can run into situations where having no thermostat will actually make the engine run hotter than if it has the proper thermostat.  The reason for this is that there is no control on how the coolant circulates and will go through the bypass (short hose near the water pump) rather than being forced to go through the radiator.  That is another reason for using a skirted thermostat, they ensure better flow through the radiator.  For the cost of new skirted thermostat, I would simply replace it while everything is apart.  From what I have been reading here, it sounds like there was a catastrophic failure of the head as a result of the "crack" and that caused your problems.  I think that if the thermostat was defective, you would have noticed immediately. Simply replacing the defective head will probably solve your problems, but while it is apart, it may be the time to ensure the heads are up to snuff and then you can avoid problems down the road.  Rick

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

For short term testing I do not see no thermostat to be a problem (i.e checking system for leaks).  The 440-3 does take a special skrited thermostat though (Mr. Gasket P/N 4367)

[smg id=1330]

From the Correct 440-3 Thermostat sticky:
(http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=3547.msg8788#msg8788http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=3547.msg8788#msg8788)

From: Sea Hag
Sent: 6/10/2004

The thermostat for a 440 is 185 Degree . It also has to be the skirted type , for the 440 which has the lower portion ( engine side )of the thermostat enclosed with three ports for the water flow - this restricts the coolant flo to  keep it in the engine block a little longer to properly cool the engine evenly . with the non skirted type installed the 440 3 will run too hot as the coolant passes through the block and radiator too fast , not allowing the coolant to properly asorb engine heat . I've been told that this can cause  coolant to boil and force coolant away from portions of the block  and cause major engine damage . There is a OEM sticker on the air-horn of air-cleaner that shows a drawing and also in the Dodge chassis service manual . Mine is hard to read but has Dodge part number 3837 609 From what I can make out .This differs from the parts catalog  . if someone else can read theirs and these are incorrect please post the proper number .The 360 can use either type  and I believe the 318 and 413 can also .  Only the 440 3 needs the skirted one . Sea Hag

I listed all this to ensure you are provided all the information.

As you can see in this picture, the stock Dodge temp gauge leaves a bit to be desired.

That is an engine cool downed pic.  When warmed up it should be mid range.  Running hot will be in the upper end obviously but you really never know just how hot it is.  I always want to know without question what is going on (paranoid? Nah, like you tight budget minded).  NOrmal operation around 195-200.  Up hills 200-220 max.  So I use aftermarket gauges like these to keep myself out of hot water (no pun intended ):



2 transmission gauges (cooler in and out)

I know this is frustrating for you guys.  Dodge did not make this simple.  All the reading I have done indicates there are at least 3 different casting numbers (3751213, 3769902, and 4006452) that can come with the peanut spark plug.  At least 2 of those casting numbers (3769902 and 4006452) comes in 2 flavors. A 440-1 and a 440-3 version.  Just means you cannot completly depend on the casting number to identify a 440-3 head.  Takes the casting number and the presence of the peanut spark plug (14mm, tapered seat [autolite plug 23, 24, 25, or 26], that use a 5/8 spark plug socket).  440-1 head uses a 13/16 spark plug socket (14MM flat seat with gasket).  Knowing just that little piece of information could have saved you guys some $.  I know you guys know most of this by now and the frustration that came with it but I have yet to see this clearly presented anywhere on the web of what is meant by extra cooling holes.  Thats been part of the problem talking to this in this thread.
 

[Wantawinnie]

If you suspect the thermostat is faulty you could toss it in a pot of water and heat it on the stovetop. Along with a cooking thermostat you will find out if it opens and at what temperature.

[LJ-TJ]

Tomorrow morning    Yah know you guys are pretty terrific hanging  with me this long. Thanks

[JDxeper]

We love you all -TJ, that's why.
JD

[LJ-TJ]

Done. Call me crazy but the head is being shipped Friday.
http://www.reds-vintage-parts.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=40&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&pop=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=100001

[ibdilbert01]

We know your crazy, but in a lovable kind of way!