'77 dodge Champion 440 Overheating belt replacement water pump

[DatteKans]

Hello all,
We have been restoring a '77 Dodge Champion 440-3 caravan and motor that has 67 800 miles on it and had been in storage for at least 8 years. We have managed to get it started last friday. A lot of smoke from surface oil and dust and overheating occured.
We are now trying to find the source of overheating. And, while looking for the thermostat that "is located above the water pump inside the housing", low and behold, there is no belt going to the water pump from the engine.
We have been unable with the chassis service manual to find which belt should be used. And Napa autoparts couldn't help us either even though we measured with rope the length required to surround water pump, engine and tensioner pullies. Does that tensioner really belong in the mix? And how are we supposed to find out what belt to buy?
Any help would be of service.
We measured 53"-3/4 (136.5 cm approx.) At the bottom of the groove. The alternator belt specs are (motor-alternator-fan) : 2-1482 DAYCO 15455∆11A1155.
The power steering belt specs are (motor-power steering-fan) : 1-3581 DAYCO 15480∆11A12...
We cannot figure out what to get.
Thanks for all your help.
Xxx

[BigAlsVehicleEmporium]

The Navigates page on the Gates website is a good place to start. Here's a link where I put in your model information: https://navigates.gates.com/us/search-results?EquipmentClass=Passenger%20Cars%20%26%20Light%20Trucks&EquipmentYear=1977&EquipmentMake=Dodge&EquipmentModel=M%20Series%20Motor%20Home&EquipmentEngine=V-8%20440

Does your rig have A/C? It looks like a Gates 7480 goes across the fan & Power Steering belt and a 7455 goes across the fan and alternator. Do you have a two groove fan pulley and a single groove alternator? If so, then that makes sense.

The original Mopar numbers for your rig are 2658391 for the power steering belt and a 2951898 for your power steering belt. The specs for those numbers at vbeltguys.com pretty well match the specs for the Gates belts, so you might have your answer!

I don't know how or if having A/C changes anything though. Good luck!

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Dodge MH Belts and Hoses

[DatteKans]

The Navigates page on the Gates website is a good place to start. Here's a link where I put in your model information: https://navigates.gates.com/us/search-results?EquipmentClass=Passenger%20Cars%20%26%20Light%20Trucks&EquipmentYear=1977&EquipmentMake=Dodge&EquipmentModel=M%20Series%20Motor%20Home&EquipmentEngine=V-8%20440

Does your rig have A/C? It looks like a Gates 7480 goes across the fan & Power Steering belt and a 7455 goes across the fan and alternator. Do you have a two groove fan pulley and a single groove alternator? If so, then that makes sense.

The original Mopar numbers for your rig are 2658391 for the power steering belt and a 2951898 for your power steering belt. The specs for those numbers at vbeltguys.com pretty well match the specs for the Gates belts, so you might have your answer!

I don't know how or if having A/C changes anything though. Good luck!

Hello,
Thanks so much for the links and original numbers!!
Ok, so yes, we have A/C. Alternator has 2 grooves and fan pulley seems to have 2 also... Motor 3.  

[DatteKans]

More photos

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Dodge 440-3 Belt Configuration

[BigAlsVehicleEmporium]

I'd check out the link that Dave posted, he knows what he's talking about! But did you say your crank pulley only has three grooves? And your fan and alternator both have two as well? That seems odd to me and I don't think it matches the 440 picture, but I don't know what to tell you, I'm pretty new to these Mopar motor home engines.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

All depends on with or without AC.
W/O AC uses two belts (alternator and Power Steering Pump), both of which wrap around the water pump pulley. This is shown in Section 7 (Cooling) of the MH Parts book.

With AC uses 4 belts which is what is shown above. Not shown in parts book because Dodge did not provide AC with the chassis (RV Mfg add-on).

To make replacement parts easier, the alternator is supplied with a a double pulley so it can support both with and W/O AC.

[BigAlsVehicleEmporium]

That makes sense about the A/C being a manufacturer add on. Can he still do this setup if the crank pulley only has three grooves? I guess one belt for fan & idler, one belt for alternator & A/C, and one belt for PS?

Actually, looking at his pictures again, it looks like he's got one alternator & fan belt, one fan & PS belt, and a spot for an A/C belt. Assuming that the way the belts are routed in those pictures is correct.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Based on DatteKans pictures
1. He originally had an AC upgrade.  Most likely had a 4 pulley crank setup.  It would have been an R-12 based system which is bad juju in todays R-134 world.
2. Someone has eliminated the AC by converting his system back to the non AC configuration with a 3 pully crank, 2 pulley water pump, and just 2 belts in order to keep belt paths correct.
3. See this thread for upgrade ideas Can I install an aftermarket dash air conditioner in my class C?
 even though it is fairly old and was a class C, the same principles apply plus has many external links for possible source info.

You guys making me really search my memory.  First, the 78 Chieftain I had did not come with dash AC so I only had a 2 belt setup with only a 3 pully crankshaft.  The 440-3 4 pully crankshaft configuration originates from the Dodge MB300/400 440-3 van chassis (Class C) with AC however, the aftermarket community (ARA, etc.) that RV mfg's used, designed the installation a little different depending on which compressor was chosen. Dodge used either a RV2 or C-171 compressor and his does not look like either one (eg Aftermarket design).  My only personal interest in all this came from my desire to upgrade the stock 60 amp alternator to a single wire 100 amp GM alternator (never did).  That upgrade would of required a double belt alternator pulley to handle the increased load which is what drove my research (eg: a custom modification of the AC belt design).

[Mlw]

You guys making me really search my memory.

Well, it's never a bad thing opening up old draws in the memory bank. It keeps the braincells going       

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

But the dust and cobwebs are atrocious    

[DatteKans]

Well hello community!!!
Ok!
It has taken us a week to even figure out what is going on, both on the Champion and in this thread. We have come to understand pretty well actually,thanks!
BUT! (And there's always a butt), our situation is weirdly in the middle of all you are saying... Hahahah 

Ok, so,
1) Entirely for certain, our crankshaft has only 3 grooves;
2) Entirely for certain, or at least as is written on our VIN : M40CA6S354479, we have a 440-3 motor;
3) Our Alternator pulley has 2 grooves, PS has 1, Fan has 2 and Water pump has 2; crankshaft 3;

As mentioned, it seems someone has retrograded the original with-AC configuration back to a 2 belt w/o AC configuration.

If we look at Dave's link (blue motor), we can manage to reconfigure belts in proper configuration, except the double belt that goes water pump-alternator-crank... So what is this extra needed "upgrade" double belt that was spoken about? Can we just have one there?

And also is it absolutely necessary that water pump passes through alternator or if the grooves align can we just go --> water pump - crank shaft, alone??

And finally, if our initial problem is due to troubleshooting for overheating, looking for thermostat, then looking for water pump (location of thermostat housing) and finding a huge one with no belt. Is it a possibility that the motor has another independent water pump where a thermostat might be or it is certain that the one in photos is the only one.

Reason for the question:
How in the heck could previous owner/friend of mine have been driving with this belt setup without cooling system in function??? Thus why are we overheating??

P.S. we are also going to fill power steering fluid with transmission fluid 'cause it was empty. Old motor garagist friends have said its the thing to do.
Could the empty PS fluid be the reason it is overheating??? I think not. But hey ??

Thanks a million,

Natalie and Vuskans

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

This is the stock 440-3 two belt w/o AC configuration:

3 pully Crankshaft
2 pully Fan/WP pully
2 pully Alternator
1 pully P/S Pump

Alternator belt - (Gates 7455) goes around rear crank pully, rear W/P pulley and rear ALT pulley.
Power Steering belt (Gates 7480 belt) goes around front crank pulley, front W/P pulley, and P/S pulley.
Center crank pulley does not appear to be used. Be sure to select the correct set of pully's for each belt such that the belt is alignment across each of its associated pulleys.
I no longer have a rig I can look at. to verify first hand.
Thermostat is located in the housing on top of engine the top radiator hose connects to
No there is not a separate water pump.
Overheating can be one of several things:  Corroded radiator (most common at this age), stuck thermostat,  defective water pump, blown head gasket, slipped timing belt, improper timing, etc.


 
For reference, with AC was typically a 4 belt configuration (the blue motor in the link)

BTW - I really don't understand why you say "Fan has 2 and Water pump has 2" because fan is attached to the water pump, they are not separate.

[BigAlsVehicleEmporium]

Dave,

That's an interesting illustration and I don't quite understand the geometry. The fan pulley appears to have two grooves of standard, minimal spacing and the crank pulley has three. If you put a belt across the rear groove in both pulleys, as well as the front groove, it seems likely that one belt (probably the front) would be out of alignment due to the space taken up by the empty center groove on the crank pulley. Does the fan pulley have a large space between the two grooves to get them lined up with the front and rear grooves of the crank pulley? The pictures that DatteKittens posted seem to show a standard fan pulley with groove spacing similar to the crank pulley. Perhaps the illustration is poorly drawn and only the rear two grooves are supposed to be used? Otherwise, I don't see a way to achieve belt alignment with the illustrated setup.

Alan

[Mlw]

The question now is, how fast is this overheating occuring.


Now, if you watch video's from this guy, you'll learn fast enough that you can run an engine without a belt on the waterpump. Only not to long, and not straining it by driving it thru the neighborhood.
the engine needs time to heat the cooling fluid and oil which has cooling capacities too.


So to your question "How in the heck could previous owner/friend of mine have been driving with this belt setup without cooling system in function?"
I can only say that he didn't, and the belt gave up or was removed later. Maybe the belt was placed as you said, Crank - Waterpump. It is impossible to drive a brick like that around without cooling. Those v8 produce massive amounts of heat, even idling.

As Dave told you, there is not a seperate waterpump. if there is another way of cooling the engine by an electrical waterpump your friend should have known and told you about it because it would not be original and there are more options, again not original so you friend should have decided to build it in.

I do however believe out of own experience that the pressure build up in the cooling system does give some circulation, but of course not enough to cool the engine.

Other cause of overheating:



Exept for the leaves, this came out of my engine water channels. Ask your friend if he ever put water in the cooling system and left it. if he did....Bingo, you'll have the same and you need to flush your system. I had the "Luck that I had the engine out so could do it with air-pressure. You wouldn't believe the dustcloud hanging in the air. If there is a lot of rust when flushing you can use this excellent tip:

Just passing a old cure for oxidation in a radiator/block. Oxcyliac acid also woodbleach, it once was the go to cleaner for the big 3. It also cleans a hull with little or no work...barnacle excluded  of course. Not to toxic at all, just don't breathe the stuff when mixing it can sting a smidge. Below a video with great humor, it gets real about 10 minutes in...

https://youtu.be/IER1gzjLizM


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/radiator-flush-cemicals-question.16278/

And about the power steering pump, Whas it squealing lik a pig standardly, because chances are that you then are already to late. It doesn't effect the overheating problem of your engine but it does burn up your powersteering pump if it's low on fluid.

Good luck

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

BigAl,
I can see your point.  Pic is directly from the Dodge Service manual.  I no longer have a rig I can look at directly so I can not verify. This whole situation is oddball because of the modifications that were made to the stock installation.  Since the AC had already been eliminated (belt removal) I was focusing on what Dodge originally designed in an effort to get him back to some sort of known baseline. If someone W/O AC could look at their 440-3 install and simply say which pulleys theirs are on it would make things a little easier.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Found some old pics of mine. 

Power Steering belt was on crankshaft center pulley.
Alternator belt was on crankshaft rear pully.  Also rear pulley on Alternator

[RockwoodMike]

just to verify all that is said here..You can just make it out on belt configuration..

Crank has 3 pulleys..Rear pulley has crank-pump-alt.

Middle pulley has crank-pump-power steering..No AC as this thing never had any pieces of a AC system..

[DatteKans]

Hello all,
Thanks for all this help. It is getting us somewhere, we hope, even if the problem is not solved yet.
So for one, I guess we were confused about what the water pump was, because we followed the radiator hoses to a huge pump. But I guess it is the AC pump, because Dave said he couldn't understand why I was talking about 2 belts on fan and 2 belts on water pump, seeing as they were the same thing...
Soooo, maybe our straps are on fine after all.
What is happening is that if I turn on the motor with cold air on, Everything runs fine for about 3-4 minutes with cool air coming out of the fan. Then, only one side (passenger/alternator side) of the motor starts smoking and the air coming from the ground vent becomes hot. Smoke smells like rubber. All this time, temperature gauge in dash does not show anything, stays on cold, but motor is too hot to touch and so is radiator.
That's all I've got.
We thought it was the thermostat, manual says it is in the casing of the water pump but doesn't say anything about where that water pump is. So we followed lines from radiator and they lead us to think there was a missing belt. Now, we are hoping again that it is the thermostat but we still don't know how to access it. Sure hope we don't have to flush the radiator...
Thanks again for all your answers. Still going through some of the videos and re-reading all your posts as we don't understand everything, yet.

 
Nat & Vuškāns
P.S. Photo is what we thought was WP.

[RockwoodMike]

That thing you have circled in red is the air conditioning freon pump..It moves the freon to create the cold air for your dash. Does it have any belts (straps) going to the front pulley of it??

[RockwoodMike]

because we followed the radiator hoses to a huge pump

That "radiator" that you followed the hoses from is called the air conditioning condenser. It acts to remove heat from the freon of the air conditioning system..

Behind that condenser is the engine radiator..It has 2 big hoses about 2 inches thick ..One at the bottom and one at the top. That has the coolantin it that keeps the engine from getting too hot..
You say the the engine is getting hot..That is what it is suppose to do.
The engine will get 180-195 degrees hot even with the radiator doing it's job..

[Mlw]

Yes, pointing at the wrong parts will cause major confusion.

First tip. If you don't know how parts look like, go to Rock Auto. the specifications closest to your RV is this link

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/dodge,1977,cb300,7.2l+440cid+v8,1078242

If you look for a certain part just find it in the list. All parts have pictures so there is a pretty big chance that you find a specific part on your engine based on the info at the Rock Auto site.

second tip: Youtube!

Just by typing Dodge 440 Motorhome engine, you'll get this
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dodge+440+motorhome+engine+

And if you even set the part on which you want info about it, chances are pretty big you'll find a video about it. This is exactly the way how I find out things about my RV. Be smart, and watch several video's and use the info that is simular in all the video's.

It takes time, but I promise you, it will make solving your problems a lot easier.

Now to your question where the waterpump is. It is mounted on your engine. The lower flywheel is the crankshaft pulley, the upper wheel is the waterpump pully.



In underneath picture you see the waterpump housing and the waterpump itself.

What is happening is that if I turn on the motor with cold air on, Everything runs fine for about 3-4 minutes with cool air coming out of the fan. Then, only one side (passenger/alternator side) of the motor starts smoking and the air coming from the ground vent becomes hot. Smoke smells like rubber. All this time, temperature gauge in dash does not show anything, stays on cold, but motor is too hot to touch and so is radiator.

Everything is normal!!!, I don't know exactly why, but the passengerside of RV engines are getting hotter. The smoke is probably nothing more than oil burning of the exhaust manifold. Yes this smells like burning rubber so you probably have leaky valvecover seals.

I have no dash AC in my motorhome but as far as I know Cooled air only comes from the vent openings and the standard heating system is not connected to the AC so it's not working like in modern cars.
That there is warm/hot air coming from the ground vent means that you have the heating on or that the watervalve of your heater is not functioning properly.

That the engine is to hot to touch doesn't mean it is overheating. a good operating range is between 175-210 degrees F. so that is way to hot to touch.

You have a Dodge 440 7.2 liter engine. It consumes a lot of petrol which produce massive amounts of heat when burned, and i'm starting to wonder if you are not worrying while everything is just fine, at least temperature wise.

[DatteKans]

Everything is normal!!!, I don't know exactly why, but the passengerside of RV engines are getting hotter. The smoke is probably nothing more than oil burning of the exhaust manifold. Yes this smells like burning rubber so you probably have leaky valvecover seals.

I have no dash AC in my motorhome but as far as I know Cooled air only comes from the vent openings and the standard heating system is not connected to the AC so it's not working like in modern cars.
That there is warm/hot air coming from the ground vent means that you have the heating on or that the watervalve of your heater is not functioning properly.

That the engine is to hot to touch doesn't mean it is overheating. a good operating range is between 175-210 degrees F. so that is way to hot to touch.

You have a Dodge 440 7.2 liter engine. It consumes a lot of petrol which produce massive amounts of heat when burned, and i'm starting to wonder if you are not worrying while everything is just fine, at least temperature wise.




[/quote]

Well hmmm... I totally get everything. Just was thinking that if the dash dial for temperature doesn't work, then the engine might overheat not being told to get cooled down and as it has happened to me before in a car, once, capuccino... As in engine oil mixes with coolant 'cause high pressure makes the gasket pop ad them we are good for the dump... So maybe I am being extra toi careful.
I do watch videos and try to find out info on internet before posting here, but sometimes I find it hard to be writing the proper thing. I will definitely look into all these links, though!
Thanks a million for all the tips I will keep you posted on the success,if/when it occurs, heheheh

[Mlw]

Those V8's are pretty sturdy beasts and they can take a beating. If they really are overheating, trust me, you'll know, because you would back off of them due to the heat they will give off! But I am totally agreeying you don't want to let it become to this.

you can check your temp gauge. Just take the wire from the temperature gauge and hold it to a grounding point. The meter should be flying up immediately. If the meter does do that then you know it works. Then you can check your temp sensor with a multimeter.

These temp Sensors work on ground resistance. The colder the engine the higher the resistance is. As the engine and coolant fluid warms up the resistance gets lower.

So set the multimeter on 20K in the ohm section, put the red on the temp sensor and the black on a ground point. As the resistance gets weaker the number on the multimeter should go down. If it does the temp sensor should at least work and you should get a readout on your tempgauge.

Now this said, I can tell you, before the tempgauge goes up you will already get plenty of heat from your manifolds and you will not be able to touch them.

But if you want to be absolutely sure get one of those:

https://www.walmart.com/search?q=Temperature+gun

Oh and by the way: There are no dumb questions here so never hesitate to ask, but do prepare that you can get answers you didn't expect