DO NOT USE ADVANCED AUTO OUTER WHEEL BEARING P/N --15101

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: Liv42dayOK  (Original Message)
Sent: 12/17/2004 8:57 PM

This is a warning to all owners of M300 chassis based motorhomes: 

DO NOT USE ADVANCED AUTO OUTER WHEEL BEARINGS. 

They are of inferior quality, and when they fail Advanced Auto  will not do anything more than replace the bearings -- they will not stand good for any damage caused by the failure of thier poor quality bearings, or for any towing necessitated by these bearings.

I replaced my wheel bearings on October 11th of this year with bearings that I purchased from the Advanced Auto in Blue Springs, MO.  Today, as I was driving on the service road next to Interstate 40, the driver's side spindle snapped in two.  This caused me to veer violently to the left, almost putting me into the median between the service road and the Interstate; I was able to maintain control (barely) and get my Winnie onto the shoulder.  Had I been going at highway speed, instead of only 35 mph, I would have surely lost control and possibly caused a major accident.

Upon inspection of the wheel, I found that the only thing that had kept it from coming off completely was the brake caliper; the wheel was canted at an angle, with the top of the tire almost sticking out of the wheel well.  I managed to remove the lugnuts & wheel, and then pulled the center cap.  The entire outter bearing, spindle nut & washer -- still on the spindle end -- fell out into my hand.  The spindle had broken right in the center of the bearing cage.  It was obvious as to what had happened; the bearing cage broke, allowing one of the bearing rollers to get sideways -- it was ground down on one end, showing that it had contact with the inside of the hub.  The resulting heat from this grinding action caused the bearing to sieze, further heating the spindle; this caused the spindle to snap.

I called a friend of mine on the CB, who took me down to the local Advamced Auto; I took all of my receipts, and talked to the manager when I got there.  After explaining the problem, the manager telephoned his District Manager and explained the situation.  He then passed on the "ruling" from the DM -- they would replace the outter bearing, but would not pay for any towing, replacement spindle, or other repairs under any circumstances.

My Winnie is now at the Flying J truck stop with wooden blocks where the drivers side front wheel used to be; it cost me $85.00 to have it towed 1-1/4 miles.  I found a possible replacement axle (the spindle alone for my axle cannot be found here) in a local junk yard just 3/4 mile from me.  Tomorrow I have to measure the axle pads to see if the distance between the springs is the same; if so, I can probably use my old hubs on the other axle, which will probably cost me around $100.00 without even counting new bearings, races & seals.  If not, then I am stranded and immobile, without a steer axle.

The bottom line is, when confronted with incontrovertible proof that their bearing failed and caused massive damage, Advanced Auto refuses to accept responsibility for the poor quality of the parts.  As I explained to both the store manager and the District Manager, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever buy so much as a fuse from Advanced Auto.  I also informed them that I would be happy to spread the word about their shoddy quality and refusal to do the right thing to every other potential customer -- they didn't seem to care much.

John



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 12/15/2004 9:08 PM

John,glad you are OK,that was close!
BooBoo



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 12/15/2004 9:27 PM

Though your experience must've been harrowing, we are thankful that you were unhurt and were able to keep control of your rig.  That took a cool head and hand in a tough situation. 

We hope you get back on the road soon and home to your loved ones. - Sob



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 12/15/2004 9:08 PM

John,glad you are OK,that was close!
BooBoo



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 12/15/2004 9:27 PM

Though your experience must've been harrowing, we are thankful that you were unhurt and were able to keep control of your rig.  That took a cool head and hand in a tough situation. 

We hope you get back on the road soon and home to your loved ones. - Sob



From: daved27c
Sent: 12/15/2004 11:52 PM

John;

Glad that you are OK after that. One thought to get out. Good Sam towing coverage is only $85.00 per year for as many tows as you need. Cheap insurance at best. I have had my rig towed twice, and the price was worh it.

Dave



From: 70winnie
Sent: 12/16/2004 5:44 AM

Glad you're OK.  MotorHome magazine also has a column where they attempt to resolve issues for consumers, although I don't know if AutoZone would be as likely as a MH manufacturer to avoid the negative publicity from the magazine.

Also, look into getting emergency road service for your motorhome to avoid future towing costs.  I recently got mine from Good Sam Club ERS.  I haven't had to use it so I can't comment on the value, but it seems like a good enough deal and there were no age restrictions listed.



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/16/2004 8:11 AM

The two bearings I purchased from Auto Zone (p/n SET37) were true Timken bearings, and have performed well.  Likewise, the passenger side outer bearing purchased from Napa (p/n 15101) -- also a true Timken bearing -- has also performed well.  The driver's side outer bearing, the one purchased from Advanced Auto Parts, was the one which failed; this bearing was "Made In China" and obviously of inferior quality.  On close examination of the failed bearing, I find that the steel used for the bearing cage is paper thin; this is the component of the bearing that started the failure -- the cage failed and allowed one or more bearing rollers to get sideways.

I would still not recommend Auto Zone, on the basis of lack of willingness to fulfill their warrantee responsibility; their refusal to accept responsibility when the part was believed to be their part is indicative of an unwillingness to take care of damages caused by their parts when they do fail.

I think that I will also make this a general warning regarding using parts that are made in China; I do not know yet what Advanced Auto Parts' response will be to my claim.  I will be speaking to them today, and I will update this topic regarding any satisfaction I receive from them -- or lack thereof.

John



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 12/16/2004 8:43 AM

Thank you so much for sharing this info, HHT.  It could have happenend to any one of us and your input will surely save someone the awful experience in the future (and possibly lives). - Sob



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 12/16/2004 2:12 PM

Funny,I was wondering if they were Timkin bearings,as thats all  Ive ever gotten before.But didnt they stop making bearings here in USA and close down recently,wonder if they are now a Made in China brand too??Man I dont like that Chinese stuff at all.
BooBoo



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 12/16/2004 2:20 PM

You know John,I kind of doubt anyone will take responsibilty though.Be surprised if anyone does.As I said before,Im just glad youre OK,that could have been your last breath ever,SCARY!
So if they dont make good,you got screwed,but thank God youre alive,that was just too close a call.
Are you going to small claims em,or just let it go?I dont think its worth your time to pursue.
I would probably just let it go,and spread the word like youre doing,I sure appreciate the info.
BooBoo



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/16/2004 8:54 PM

As promised, here is the "email trail" from my conversation with Axel Oberg, Warranty Manager for Advanced Auto Parts:

My Original Message To Advanced Auto, via their website:

-----Original Message-----
From: John E. Smith
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:43 AM
To: Axel Oberg
Subject: Advance Auto Parts - Warranty Question

-------------------------------------------------
Contact Information:
First Name: John
Last Name: Smith
Address: c/o Flying J Travel Plaza
City: Amarillo
State: TX
Zip:
Phone: 210-***-****
Email: *******@************
-------------------------------------------------
Comments: On October 12, 2004 I purchased a wheel bearing (your SKU 15040018, part number S15101) and installed it into my 1977 Winnebago D21 "Brave" motor home.  All bearings were well packed with grease, and the internal cavity in the wheel hub between the two bearings was also packed with grease. On December 15, 2004 this bearing caused a catastrophic failure, causing the driver's side wheel spindle to snap right at this bearing.  Upon close examination of the failed part, it was found that the bearing cage of the bearing was constructed of paper-thin, sub-standard metal; this metal also does not appear to be steel.  This bearing cage failed, which allowed the bearing rollers to get loose and gring on the inside of the wheel hub. This grinding caused the bearing to sieze, and the resulting superheating caused the spindle to fail right at the location of this outer wheel bearing. I spent $85.00 to have my motorhome towed to a safe location.  I have not yet been able to effect repairs. I am hereby demanding that your company re-imburse me for the towing cost. I also demand that your company make full and complete repair of the axle; if a new spindle cannot be found, then you must replace the axle. I will be visiting one of you stores here in Amarillo, Texas this morning to assert this demand in person.  I have already contacted my attorney in this matter, and -- if necessary -- he stands ready to file suit against your company should you refuse to accept responsibility for the failure of your sub-standard part.
John E. Smith
Retired
**************************************************************************************
Advanced Auto's Response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Axel Oberg
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:15 AM
To: John E. Smith
Cc: Store 5168 Manager; Store 5168 Team Member; Store 8119 Manager; Store 8119 Team Member; Jason Hargett
Subject: RE: Advance Auto Parts - Warranty Question
Importance: High

Mr. Smith,
We are very sorry that you experienced a failure.  The "bearing cage" that you describe is simply designed to keep the roller or ball bearings in place until they are installed.  Once installed, the cage has no function, the rollers simply turn against the inner and outer bearing race.  Some are made of thin sheet metal, others are made of plastic. 
We will be more than happy to file a claim for you with the manufacturer, Federal Mogul.  To do so, please return the bearing, (or any and all pieces that you have), to our store and bring any invoices you have, as well as your purchase receipt.  Our store will refund the purchase price of the bearing at that time and will offer you a discount on any parts you require to fix your vehicle as a gesture of good will.
At our expense, the part will be shipped to Federal Mogul's testing facility.  It will be examined under a microscope and you will receive a full written report and pictures that will explain the reason for failure. Should the part show any defect in materials or workmanship on their part, Federal Mogul will approve the claim for payment for any reasonable charges. At this time, I will send our Amarillo stores the instructions for
shipping and handling of your claim.  Again, we will need any and all pieces of this failed bearing for them to make an accurate diagnosis of the failure.
Axel Oberg,
Manager, Warranty Claims Department
**************************************************************************************
My Response To Their Reply:
-----Original Message-----
From: John E. Smith
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:33 AM
To: Axel Oberg
Subject: RE: Advance Auto Parts - Warranty Question

Axel,
Thank you for your timely response.  I should tell you that I have contacted my former Timken bearings representative (I used to own a small trucking company and still have many contacts in the industry) whom I have dealt with for over 20 years.  I asked him about this bearing failure, and emailed photos to him which he evaluated on the phone with me.
Your description of the bearing cage's purpose is incorrect, at least in this application.  According to my Timken representative, the bearing cage is an integral part of the bearing and is designed to keep the bearing rollers running true in this particular application.  Your description may be true in an axle that requires high torque on the spindle nut, but this application only requires 60 ft/ lbs.
I will be visiting your store this morning to present my claim and demand for repairs in writing; I will expect your store manager to immediately arrange for repairs.  If possible, I would also like him to reimburse me for the towing charges, but I understand if this must come from your corporate office in check form.
Thank you for your time and assistance.
John E. Smith
**************************************************************************************
Advanced Auto's Final Response:
From: Axel Oberg
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:15 AM
To: John E. Smith
Cc: Store 5168 Manager; Store 5168 Team Member; Store 8119 Manager; Store 8119 Team Member; Jason Hargett
Subject: RE: Advance Auto Parts - Warranty Question
Importance: High
Mr. Smith,
Our store manager will be glad to file a claim for you with Federal Mogul, but he will not be able to approve any payment other than a refund of the part.  Federal Mogul will determine if this part was defective and determine if the claim is approved for payment. We will not assume liability for any repairs.   You may have the vehicle repaired at your expense or wait untilthe claim is resolved before having the vehicle repaired.  We are more than happy to assist you with your claim, but until we are told this part is defective by our supplier, we will not be able to approve any payment.

Axel Oberg,
Manager, Warranty Claims Department
**************************************************************************************
My Final Response:
-----Original Message-----
From: John E. Smith
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 7:37 PM
To: Axel Oberg
Subject: RE: Advance Auto Parts - Warranty Question
Mr. Oberg,
Your complete refusal to accept responsibility for the parts you sell is telling, but not really surprising.  However, in the State of Texas we have a law that basically states (paraphrased) that if you sell me something then you are responsible for any damages that the proper use of this item causes when it fails.  To claim that you are simply a supplier just does not cut the mustard, and will not absolve your company of responsibility in this matter.
My attorney will be in touch with your legal department in the very near future.  Since my attorney is also contacting the Texas Attorney General's Office, I believe that they will also be in contact with your company regarding your violation of Texas law.
You may also be interested to know that copies of our email correspondence have been posted in a large MSN newsgroup named "Classic Winnebago Owners" (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com) as information for the other members of the group.  I am also forwarding copies -- along with high resolution digital photographs of the failed part and the damage caused -- to Woodall's, Trailer Life magazine, RV Times, etc for publication in their next issue.
I think that you will find that it would have been much cheaper for your company, in the long run, to simply have been willing to take responsibility for the shoddy part you sold me and been interested in repairing the damage it caused.  As Amanda (the young lady I dealt with at your store) is aware, I attempted to strike a compromise in asking your company to simply reimburse me for the towing and purchase the spindle or axle (whichever one was more readily found) for me; I was willing to make the repairs myself.  But, this is what happens when you attempt to get out of things.
John E. Smith
Retired Owner
AJ's Trucking LLC
Jackson, Nebraska
Currently stranded in Amarillo, Texas

*****************************************************************************************************

Naturally, I did not allow them to take the failed bearing.  Boy, that would have been stupid -- give the proof to the people I am getting ready to sue?  I don't think so.  I did contact my attorney, and he will be filing the suit next week.  He also contacted the Texas AG (he is a former Dallas prosecutor and has many contacts in the AG's office) and they already have 6 cases pending against Advanced Auto similar to this -- I make number 7.  Just to demonstrate how confident he is, he refused to take a retainer -- he is taking this one on contingency; and lawyers don't take cases on contingency unless they are 99% certain that they will win.

John



From: cooneytunes
Sent: 12/16/2004 9:19 PM

John, I too am very glad you or anyone else was not injured........And All I have to say is....Way to go.....That letter should raise some hairs....Tomorrow, I should see Frank Kimmel (he's Advanced Auto Parts driver (5 time ARCA Champion). I know him very well. I want to see his face, cause' I'm always kidding him about AAP's "Cheepo Parts", and he's always saying how they stand behind there parts better than NAPA...Will let you know what his responce is.....Keep us up to speed on this matter, and any way I can help, I will, Question...What If the whole membership was to E-mail this guy, what do you think would happen?
Good-luck. Keep it safe......and Merry Christmas
Timmy



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/16/2004 9:27 PM

Now that Advanced Auto has refused to help me in any way, I need to move on (my lawyer can handle the rest) and get my Winnie up and running.

Do any of you know where I can get either a driver's side spindle or a complete axle for a 1976 chassis year Dodge M300 motor home chassis?  I just need the driver's side spindle -- the dust shield and caliper mount were not damaged because the axle never hit the ground.  This spindle does not use a small lockbolt to lock the kingpin in place, which is set at about a 3-5 degree inward tilt; the steering arm that is mounted to it functions as this lockbolt by bolting through the back of the spindle right in the middle with the threaded part of the arm partially protruding into the bore of the kingpin.

I believe that the complete axle (with rotors, calipers and dust shields) from a M400 chassis would also fit.  The one I found in a local truck junk yard turned out to be from a M400 chassis; it was a little beefier axle, but the spring pads and bolt holes line up perfectly and the wheel studs are the same.  However, after we got the danged thing dug out from under the motor home it was on, it turned out that the passenger side wheel bearing had been burnt up completely and both wheels were locked up completely from rust.    So back to the drawing board, I guess.

On the positive side, I spoke to the General Manager of the truckstop this morning regarding my situation.  He was completely sympathetic, and said that I could leave it parked where it is as long as necessary.  Apparently, I picked a good parking spot to have the wrecker driver drop it -- I am pretty much out of public view, but right next to the WiFi antenna and the back door.  And, if absolutely necessary, I am within extension cord distance of an outside electrical plug.  Now do you guys understand why I like Flying J's so well? 

If anyone has a lead on where I can get either the spindle or a whole axle at a reasonable price, please email me at this address (I am going to set it up on my email server for this purpose only to avoid spam):  axle@ajs-trucking.net

John



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/16/2004 10:47 PM

Timmy wrote:

"What If the whole membership was to E-mail this guy, what do you think would happen?"

Uhhhhh.... don't know?  Here's the email address --
aoberg@advance-auto.com

Maybe we should find out?  It would at least be interesting...

John



From: cooneytunes
Sent: 12/16/2004 11:35 PM

John here's what I wrote the guy.....Timmy

My name is Timmy Cooney, I am writing you on behalf and support of a brother member of our group Classic Winnebago Motorhomes www.classicwinnebago.com John Smith. 
      John, who recently purchased a part at one of your stores is stuck in Amarillo, Texas at the moment. Due to the fact one of your stores sold him a defective part, and from what I understand at the moment, you are refusing to accept a claim on this, also being in violation of Texas law.   
      I am also a customer and owner of a Winnebago motor home and several other vehicles, tractors and mowers, up until now, buy parts from Advanced Auto Parts store in Scottsburg Indiana.
The part you sold Mr. Smith is defective, which if John states it is, so it must be.  If this situation is not remedied to Mr. Smith's satisfaction. Consider this customer (me) gone from Advance Auto Parts due to the fact you will not stand behind the parts you sell.
                                                    Respectfully and Hopefully, still an AAP Customer,
                                                                                       Timmy Cooney
                                                                                       Salem, Indiana



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 12/17/2004 3:45 AM

HeavyHaul, So sorry to hear of your failure. I am glad that you were o.k. though. loosing a front wheel could have been fatal!! As a parts person with O'Reilly Auto Parts, I can provide a little insight on Advances position in this matter. First, you are absolutley correct that the bearing cage is an integral part of the design and function of the bearing, as it relates to this application. On standard passenger vehicles, the cage simply supports the rollers in the correct position until the assembly is torqued into place. After that, the race won't allow the rollers to "walk" out of alignment. Large trucks need a sturdy cage to help provide extra stability to the bearing due to much higher side loads on the roller surfaces. Second, You are also correct that a "properly" greased and installed bearing should not experience a catastrophic failure after only a month and a half of use. I say "properly" because you didn't mention the original reason for replacing the bearings in the first place, therefore I have no way of knowing if the surface of the spindle had been damaged in any way by your last set.(which would explain a failure of the new part) I assume with your background, that you had inspected the spindle for cracks,gouges,pitting,grooves,or burrs prior to installing the new ones. Also, that you removed the old race, and installed a new one for the new bearing to ride on. Third, And don't take this the wrong way, The guy was correct that as a supplier, they are not directly responsible for damages or reimbursments for labor or towing. The manufacturer is. They would send the part to the manufacturer, along with a brief explanation of what happened, and copies of any bills, or estimates required to return your vehicle to the same condition it was in prior to the failure of the part. Unfortunately, all of that is clearly spelled out in the written warranty for every major retailer. But very few, too few actually, customers ever take the time to read the "Limited Lifetime Warranty" they get with thier parts to see just what the "Limited" part really means. However, in this case, given the circumstances of the failure being only after 1 1/2 months, and also being very hard for the manufacturer to disprove your assertion that the part was installed correctly. They would likely approve your claim without any problem. I know that if they did, it would cover the part,labor,and any other supplies needed. As for the towing, I don't know, maybe-maybe not. You do need to cover yourself though. Get 3 good estimates for the repairs needed, take a full set of pictures showing the damage. As to giving them the part, I don't see a problem there, they have nothing to gain personally, Whether the claim is approved or not it won't cost Advance a dime either way. And belive me, Federal Mogul is not sitting out there just waiting to "get" you. They have a claim dept. set up that handles claims just like yours every day. As to them "examining" the part, Which is more belivable, that they run extensive metalurgical tests at great expense, and do a full detailed examination on all the "bits and pieces" with a high powered microscope, or, Some guy paid about $10 bucks an hour opens up the envelope and looks at the greasy chewed up mess inside, reads the brief explanation, and says,"Sounds defective to me" and stamps "Approved" across the envelope and grabs the next one? Unless there is a very obvious and glaring installer related problem, you can bet that the second one will happen. And finally, Yes, you are absolutley free to skip having them handle this, and take them directly to court. You might even win. But if I was a judge, I would ask what steps they had made in their effort to resolve the matter, and would question why you had refused to let them follow through with thier offer to file a damage claim on your behalf. Especially since they had agreed to pay (as stated in the e-mail response you recieved) if the manufacturer was able to determine that the failure was a result of a defect or poor design, which is only fair. They should not, and cannot be held responsible for a failure if it was caused by something other than their part. And they should be held responsible if it is because of their part. But, to automatically assume that they should "just take my word for it" just isn't a realistic expectation. Lefty



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/17/2004 8:39 AM

Lefty,

Thanks for your perspective on the situation... it's funny, but O'Reily is the only parts outfit I still respect.

First of all, no -- the spindle was checked for damage when I changed the bearings.  It was completely cleaned with degreaser, inspected with a very bright light, and the slight rust that accumulates near the seal landing (back near the dust shield) was cleaned with a strip of 600 grit emery cloth.  The bearings were packed under pressure -- I have a tool that has a ring that slips into the gap between the bearing body and the cage and forces grease under pressure into the bearing -- you just keep pumping your grease gun until grease starts spurting out of the gaps between the rollers and the cage.  Once assembled, the spindle nut was torqued to 60 ft/lbs, then backed off until the cotter key would go through the first slot on the castellated nut.

Second:  Here in Texas, a vendor is primarily responsible for any customer claims regarding parts or components that they sell; whether or not they choose to pursue a claim with their supplier is a secondary issue, and entirely up to them.  Advanced Auto, as the vendor, is responsible to make good on the claim; if they, in turn, choose to make a claim against Federal Mogul, then that is up to them.  They cannot simply pass on the claim as they are attempting to do -- they sold it, and they are responsible.

Third:  I have learned, over the years, to never handle things like this alone.  I ask questions, advice and help from my attorney, from industry contacts that I have cultivated over the years, etc -- then I make up my mind on a course of action.  One of the first persons I contacted was my old Timken rep; this man has sold bearings & seals for over 20 years, and has definitively stated -- in writing -- that this bearing is of obvious substandard quality, and that it failed due to a combination of inferior quality of the bearing cage and too few bearing rollers (the bearing rollers were spaced too far apart -- the design was missing one roller).  He made this statement without knowing the source of the bearing.

Fourth:  According to my attorney, Advanced was TOO eager to retrieve the failed bearing and "any and all parts".  The warranty manager stressed several times in his email that they needed every bit of the failed bearing -- when they only needed the failed portion to determine whether it was defective.  I was advised to hang onto the bearing until some sort of resolution was made and I had an acceptable offer IN WRITING; had I taken the refund and turned over the bearing, I would have forfieted any right I have to any further satisfaction.  In other words, the bearing is the only leverage I have in this -- without it, I cannot prove anything.

Fifth:  I am not asking anyone to simply take my word for it.  I have a written statement from Timken, and to see the bearing itself it is obvious to anyone who knows anything about bearings as to why it failed.  But that is not the issue here; the law requires Advanced Auto Parts to take certain actions, and they are refusing to do so.

John



From: denison
Sent: 12/17/2004 10:31 AM

     Were the 1976 axles the same as the ones with drum brakes, from 1972 and earlier?  There was a front axle under a 1972 M400 chassis (the RV wasnt a winny) in Kleins Salvage yard, in south central Pennsylvania.  Kleins Auto Salvage, 3640 York Road, New Oxford Pa.  717-624-4386. Herb Klein is the one who would know about it; he .  It had drums brakes, not discs.  I got the brake drums from it last summer. It had a bent tie rod, but otherwise the axle assembly and spindles were fine.  Im not able to drive up and check on it, being in California at the moment.  It was only about 100 miles north of me in N. Virginia.  I dont know if Herb would remove and ship.  His salvage yard might also still have the M300 front axle from a Winnebago that Sobyak, Newcomer and I took parts from early in 2003.  It was about a 1970 M300, with drum brakes. Herb wouldnt know its chassis rating or its year though, just that it was another winnebago.   I actually thought the 5000 lb axle from the M400s had larger diameter bearing surfaces on the spindles, but I never checked - and dont have my parts catalog with me.
     Im sure you know to try arizona RV salvage.  www.azrvinc.com
       Good Luck...



From: rshaw500
Sent: 12/17/2004 10:35 AM

I also wrote to that e-mail address and told them that I thought that they were wrong in handling the bearing issue.   I told them that I will not be using Advance Auto anymore.
Rick



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/17/2004 10:57 AM

Denison, I don't think so... I looked at a couple over at Amarillo Truck Parts, and they seemed to have a different setup.

Question:  Would it be ok to put an entire drum style axle in?  Would the steering and master cylinder match up, or would I have to replace the steering arm?  Did they use the same master cylinder?  If so, then I may be in good shape -- Amarillo has two that may be possibilities, still under the coaches.

John



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 12/17/2004 11:10 AM

I have wrote Mr. Olberg on your behalf as well, I hope that if enough members show support, it will get thier attention. Good luck, Lefty



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 12/17/2004 11:20 AM

John, I have a Dodge Chassis Repar manual, and a Dodge Motorhomes Chassis parts catalog, is there any sections I could scan in and send to you via e-mail that would help? If so, let me know. Lefty



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/17/2004 11:35 AM

Thanks Lefty, but right now I just need to know if the drum brake version of the axle will work.  There were two over at Amarillo Truck Parts that might be in good shape -- complete axles with drums -- that I could probably use if the steering linkage & spring pads will match up and the master cylinder is the same.

John



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 12/17/2004 3:37 PM

Drum vs Disk brake master cylinders are different.  I wouldn't mix parts between a M300 (4500 lb axle) and a M400 (5000 lb axle) even of the same year.  I suspect you could put in a complete M400 disk brake axle in for your M300 disk brake axle though.  However, I wouldn't mix a hydroboost (power steering pump booster) component system with hydrovac system either.  Different calipers sizes.  I have a 77 M400 with hydroboost.  For ID purposes, a power steering pump driven hydrobooster is mounted on the master cylinder.  Hydroboost does not have vacume boosters mounted on the frame rails like a Hydrovac system.  I also know that the kingpin P/N's are different between a M300 and M400 which makes sense given the 2 axles have different weight ratings.  Like I said, only swap attempt I would attempt is the whole axle.  Even then, brake system types or even size may be an issue.

Dave



From: cooneytunes
Sent: 12/17/2004 5:10 PM

John.....As stated in a previos post,  I  E-mailed  AAP's Axel Oberb......Here's his responce:
Timmy

Mr. Cooney,
Thank you for contacting us.  At this time, we do not know if Mr. Smith may have a legitimate claim.  Neither he nor I can make the decision if this part is defective or not.  This can only be determined by the manufacturer, Federal Mogul.  In my ealier e-mail, I explained that the "bearing cage" that he thought was the problem, was simply a retainer for the rollers and had no effect on the operation of the bearing. This was confirmed by the technical engineer for Federal Mogul. Also, in the response from Mr. Smith, he mentioned that the spindle nut torqued to 60 pounds. This is correct, but the nut must then be backed off and simply snugged.  If left at 60 pounds, the bearing would have burned up from excessive heat and friction.  The engineer at Federal Mogul will place all parts under a microscope and take digital pictures.  He will go into great detail as to why the part failed.  Hardness of the metal will be tested, dimensions of the part will also be checked. If any manufacturing defect is found, it will be in the report and the claim approved.

Over 90% of all parts that fail, do so from improper installation, not manufacturing defects.  We have simply asked for the opportunity to have the part examined by an expert before we can approve payment.  Regardless of how much or how little a customer purchases from our company, they deserve the same treatment and service. 

Advance Auto Parts has been in business for over 70 years and have always gone above and beyond to serve our customers.  Our request for a failure analysis is not unreasonable and is in compliance with Texas law.  If the part is defective, the claim will be honored.  We are also willing to offer discounts on any parts needed to repair the vehicle, but we are not simply going to pay for the repair without knowing the part was defective.  We realize that you have the right to purchase parts wherever you wish. I would hope that you see we are indeed doing our best to serve this customer.

Axel Oberg,
Manager, Warranty Claims Department
540-561-3516
Fax 540-561-3512
aoberg@advance-auto.com
Please attach your reply to this e-mail to assure a quick and accurate response



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/17/2004 8:37 PM

Thanks for the support, Timmy.  I appreciate it.

I have had a VERY busy day today!  But it has been a very productive day, also.

First, I spoke with my lawyer for almost an hour this morning.  We have decided to hold the filing of a suit in abeyance until a final resolution is arrived at with Advanced Auto Parts.  This means that we will allow Advanced to analyze the failed bearing; since we already have an analysis from Timken, who is willing to furnish an expert witness if necessary, we want to see what AAP/ Federal-Mogul comes up with.  If their analysis comes up different, then we will pursue the suit in earnest.

Secondly, I finished tearing down the driver's side spindle.  I took it back down to Amarillo Truck Parts and the owner and I checked it against every junked motorhome in the yard.  I finally bought the front axle from under a 1970 Champion that had drum brakes; it was the same rating, the spindle looked the same from what I could see of it, and I thought that it measured out the same.  So we pulled it and they toted it down to the truck stop for me.  After they dropped it in front of my Winnie, I got my tape out and double-checked the measurements -- the darned thing turned out to be 3/4" wider than mine!  But luckily, the new one uses the exact same spindles as mine -- once the brake backing plate, brakes & hub are removed, the spindle itself is an exact match right down to the part number stamped in the back of the flange.

I have the new spindle almost out; I still have to knock out the kingpin & clean it up.  I plan to do the other one also when I get time; once I get Winnie rolling again, I will pull the other spindle and put it in my ditty box for later.  I guess I will put the parts I don't use up for sale cheap on the classifieds -- I know there are some members who are (or will be) in need of brake drums and parts or an axle beam.  The Champion only had 21000 miles showing on the odometer -- it has been sitting in this junk yard for over 15 years.  It has a 413 in it that might be in good internal condition, and I imagine the 727 tranny is still ok.  I have dibbs on the rear end, though, if it is the 4.10 ratio!!!  I need to get away from my 4.88 gears -- I need better gas mileage!

The name of the junk yard is Amarillo Truck Parts in Amarillo, Texas -- they are in the phone book, and the owners are RV and his son Roy.  Really nice people, and they will bend over backward to help you find a part that will work!

John



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/18/2004 8:19 PM

Well, my Winnie is back on all 6 wheels now! 

I finished putting the driver's side back together about 2:00 this afternoon, then I finished tearing down the salvage axle to get the other spindle.  I will probably do that one next weekend if it is warm here.  I may have gotten a better deal than I thought on the salvage axle, though.  When I got the driver's side spindle out, I realized that it was all original MoPar parts; the donor chassis only had 21k miles showing on the odometer (but you know how fickle the odometers on Dodges were); I didn't really take it literally.  But from the amount of wear on the bearings and kingpins, it has to be right -- they are practically brand new!  I ended up cleaning them out completely with gasoline and re-packing them, both the inner and outer bearings; I re-built the thrust bearing on the kingpin (it is a very simple design), pre-lubed it with moly grease, and stuck it back in -- the spindle was so new that I didn't even need a shim on the bottom!

I have a slight problem with the extra parts.  I have two front brake drums, along with two sets of complete brakes (backing plate and everything) in like-new condition, the tie rod (perfectly straight), and the axle beam left over -- but I have no place to store them!  It is too much weight to carry around in my ditty box, too.  So, if anyone is interested in them -- speak now!  I can hold onto them for a couple of days where I am at, but if no one wants them then I will take them back to the junk yard for scrap.  That would be a shame, too -- this stuff is really low-mileage!

John



From: 54PrairieSchooner
Sent: 12/28/2004 2:52 PM

John, I have a 72 D20 Brave on an M-300 Chassis..will your extra drums work on my set up?  Alretta told me the drums have been discontinued for years..I only have 45K on mine, but would like to locate a set.... Thanks in advance.

John



From: bboat101
Sent: 12/28/2004 9:38 PM

I would like the backing plate /hardware/shoes if no one else has dibs on them, and if they would fit my '69 m300.
thanks,
brian



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/28/2004 9:58 PM

John, they should as long as you have the 8-lug 17.5" wheels.  The drum and hub are integral, so a wheel bearing change is also recommended if you change out the drums.

John



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/28/2004 10:01 PM

Brian, my guess is that they would -- but being a year newer than yours, I can't say for sure.  They use 4 bolts for mounting, and are for the 17.5" wheels (8-lug).

John



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 12/28/2004 10:51 PM

John - The shipping for the brake drums will be close to $160.00 for UPS/ Ground; you don't want to know what LTL truck shipping would be!  The total shipped weight will be close to 150 lbs, since I will have to "palletize" the drums and band them to the pallet -- the drums are close to 60 lbs apiece, and a pallet strong enough for them will be about 30 lbs.

Brian -- Tell me where you are located so I can figure up shipping, ok?  The backing plates with all the goodies weight about 15 lbs each -- do you want the old shoes, too?  They are only good for exchange or re-lining.

Since I was asking $40 for the set, lets split this up evenly and make it $20.00 for each of you.  That will make John's total $180.00, and Brian's will be around $70.00 roughly (I can get more exact when I have a Zip code for you).

Both of you can email me at j_e_smith(omit)@ajs-trucking.net and we will finalize the details, ok?

John



From: 54PrairieSchooner
Sent: 1/13/2005 6:52 AM

John, I think I will pass for now on the drums until I actually get the hydraulic portion of my brakes straightened out...but appreciate you getting back with me on this. Had forgotten where I posted the original question to you back in December, so regret late response.

R/John