Engine won't start: Starter Relay?

FHP_AB1 · November 30, 2008, 11:28 PM

Sent: 7/13/2004 4:19 PM

Itâ€™s been about 25 years since Iâ€™ve had to do work myself on a vehicle but the Brave is getting me back into it. I dropped some things off at the Rv and was going to run it over to fuel it up for next weekâ€™s trip out. However, when I went to start itâ€¦nothing. Batteries are good and fully charged. I opened the engine cover and when I turned the ignition, all I got was a click. I found the relay/solenoid that was clicking and gave it a gentle tap and it started right up. Shut it off a few times and it starts with no problem. But, Iâ€™m thinking better to replace it before it totally fails.

And rather than look stupid in the lineup at Napa, I was hoping someone here could tell me what the part is called (starter relay???) and if possible, a part number would be great.

It is a 73 Brave with a 413-1 engine. The relay or solenoid is mounted just to the left of the engine and connects to the battery and starter with the other wires running up the ignition.

Any help would be much appreciated.

From: denison
Sent: 7/13/2004 6:40 PM

You have the name right - itâ€™s a starter relay in the Dodge motor home chassis parts catalogs. The mopar # was 2444517, though that might obsolete. I have bought two of them on ebay, cause I have two winnebagos powered by that same 413 motor, and they were different part numbers. The only difference was the shape and location of the mounting bracket. Each still had two small push on terminals at the top, a large screw on terminal at the bottom for the battery cable, and a different small screw on terminal in the middle, to turn the starter on. While I had the relay bracket off I cleaned all the rust from it and the frame mounting location before I bolted it back on. If you do a search at ebay using the words "mopar starter relay" you will see a few for sale now. Be sure to get one that for the automatic trannies.

From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 7/13/2004 8:12 PM

Mopar P/N 2444517 crosses to NAPA P/N ECHSR3 $15.49
You would need to compare (pins, posts, etc.) it to the old to be sure it is OK

Dave

From: FHP_AB1
Sent: 7/14/2004 8:31 AM

As always, the answer was quick! Thanks for the help and part numbers Denison and Dave. I'll head over to Napa tomorrow with a picture of the part and with luck will have the new one in this weekend.

Thanks

Francis

From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 7/16/2004 1:06 AM

Better to go to Advance Auto -- same part number, $3.00 cheaper!

John

From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 7/16/2004 1:16 AM

Oh, and a word of advice... you might want to check the fusible links (2 of them) while you have them un-hooked to replace the relay. If they are even a little "rubbery", you would be better off replacing them now than later (in a possibly embarrassing or dangerous position). One is a 14-gage and the other is a 16-gage; the 14-gage protects the main alternator wire, and I haven't found out what the other wire goes to yet. You can get them at any parts store; cost is in the $2.00 to $3.00 range.

I found out that, in a lot of cases, when a fusible link goes out it will still show good with a test light (voltage is still getting through) but will not conduct when loaded. With regular wire-type links, the "rubber" test is the best way to tell -- hold the butt connector with two fingers, while "thumping" the link. If the link feels rubbery and limp, it is most likely fried internally and should be replaced no matter what a simple test light shows.

I had this problem a week or so ago -- found out the hard way!

John

From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 7/16/2004 6:02 AM

The second fusible link (16 gauge) is only used for the emergency light flashers. This way if the main fusible link (14 gauge) goes you still have emergency flasher lights when broke down.

Dave

From: FHP_AB1
Sent: 7/16/2004 9:24 AM

No Advance Auto here John, but thanks for the tip on the fuse links. I'll check those this weekend when I replace the relay. Picked up the part already so just have to crawl under this weekend and put it in. I paid $19 CDN so I guess that would be about $14 US.

Francis

From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 7/17/2004 9:28 AM

Ahh! Thanks for the info... I wondered what that one was for!

John

From: 54PrairieSchooner
Sent: 7/29/2004 11:49 AM

Same problem on my 72 Brave..bought the NAPA part..it is identical to the OEM. I also cleaned all the connections at the relay and all the battery cable and starter solenoid terminals.

For good measure, you should also probably replace the horn relay as well (I believe it is the same on a 73) ..its about 14-15 dollars and is avail at NAPA..part number escapes me but it is HRXX something. Without horn relay working properly or intermittently, you may not get juice to the starter as that item is in the circuit.

From: denison
Sent: 7/29/2004 12:55 PM

This applies to the 72s, but Im not sure about the Dodge chassis wiring after 73. The fuse for the horn is also for the backup lights, and supplies 12v to the to the neutral backup safety switch on the tranny; which in turn provides 12v to the starter relay - when the tranny is in park or neutral. If your horn relay shorts out, it will blow the fuse, and the starter wont work the next time - or if you have just started the RV and put it in reverse while you have a short in the back-up lights, it would also blow that fuse. You might experience this in the middle of a vacation and not remember. The starter position on the ignition switch is merely grounding the other side of the relay coil inside the starter relay.

From: In2fire1
Sent: 11/24/2005 11:41 AM

This message search is excellent! My 1973 Brave 440-3 had the same problem as this post. Went to NAPA with part number ECH-SR 3 and the part was there in two hours. Started right up! Found only one Fusible Link 14 gauge. What does the other one look like or what post on the started relay is it connect to. I made a donation to "Winne 001" because of all the money I didn't have to pay someone to fix my Winnebago. I will continue to surport this project and thanks for all the help how and in the furture. Thanks Gil in Los Angeles

From: denison
Sent: 11/25/2005 4:41 PM

I dont think my 72 has a second fusible link. I know they added another one (or more) in later years, but I dont have wiring diagrams for anything later than 73 - which shows only 1 fusible link, as far as I recall.

From: Slantsixness
Sent: 11/28/2005 8:26 AM

The second fusible link goes to the same terminal as the first, it's a supply line for the horn and accesories (BAT) in later models. Earlier models just treed off the fusible link that goes to the alternator and IGN "on" accesories.

Unless somebody added something else (that I obviously can't see from here!), that's where it should go! I think one link is usually red or blue, the other white or gray.

A lot of times, this second link blew when the vehicle was still under warranty, and the common factory fix was to remove it, and rely solely on the chassis fuse box for circuit protection (which is still fused!), so if you don't see it, it's ok, at least it won't cause you trouble!

Tom

jsmout4 · January 21, 2017, 05:07 PM

Hello,

I noticed this thread is a bit old, so I hope someone is still monitoring this and can help me. I recently bought a 1975 Indian D21 with the Dodge RM300 chassis and 440. So far I have replaced the fuel pump, alternator and radiator thermostat and rebuilt the carburetor. I got it running and would start up fine, but was really slow in turning over every time I tried to start it and eventually the only way to start it was to use the MOM button. After a couple of days just sitting, it wouldn't turn over at all and the chassis battery was dead. So I replaced the battery isolator in the battery compartment with this isolator, charged up the battery again and it fired right up without using the MOM switch. I let it run for about 5 min, turned it off and then it would only start if I used the MOM switch, but it would only turn over really slow like it wasn't getting enough juice and eventually, it would not turn over at all....all I heard was the click. After tapping on the starter a couple times, it would eventually turn over, so naturally we thought it was the starter, so I pulled out the starter which was a pain to get out and ended up getting the newer mini version of the starter....I haven't installed yet. But after reading this thread (which I wish I read before removing the starter), I am now thinking it may not have actually been the starter, but a wiring problem and the starter relay needs to be replaced along with all the wires...they all look to be in pretty bad shape. The problem I am having is that the existing starter relay that is installed (see attached pictures) is not the same relay listed as the required part provided in the manual and everywhere else I have looked, including this blog which is this part:

Mopar P/N 2444517 crosses to NAPA P/N ECHSR3
ar P/N 2444517 crosses to NAPA P/N ECHSR3

The relay that is currently installed looks similar to the isolator that I installed in the battery compartment....tin can. In reading some other sites, I ended up getting this , in hopes of matching what is currently installed.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064MX7US/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
My question is, will this work as a starter relay, or should I just purchase NAPA P/N ECHSR3 relay??

I am all new to this, so thanks for any help you can provide.

LJ-TJ · January 21, 2017, 07:07 PM

Well I got a 75 440-3 and this is what my starter relay looks like

jsmout4 · January 21, 2017, 07:22 PM

Thanks LJ-TJ, yeah, that is the same manual that I have and is supposed to match to mine, but mine does not look like that at all. I'm just wondering why mine is different or if a different type of relay can be used.

stanDman111 · January 21, 2017, 07:51 PM

it looks like yours has been replaced with a aftermarket piece

DaveVA78Chieftain · January 21, 2017, 09:18 PM

Simply put:
This is a starter relay

This is a constant duty solenoid used to cross connect the chassis and house batteries. Typically located in the battery compartment.

No, a constant duty solenoid is not intended to be used as a starter relay. Actually, they are not designed to repeatedly carry the 300 or so amps of current a starter requires.

And no, a starter relay (like used on a older ford product) is not designed to be constantly energized (Dual switch position of Dual-Norm-MOM) switch. Results in premature failure of the relay coil due to overheating.

Use the proper device for the intended application.

Hope you have the wiring diagrams so you can put this back to a stock configuration.

LJ-TJ · January 21, 2017, 10:38 PM

The Manual I have is the Dodge Motor Home Chassis Service Manual Models M-300, M-375, RM-300, RM-350, RM-400

jsmout4 · January 27, 2017, 10:01 PM

Thanks as it turns out, according to the VIN I actually have a 1974 RM300, but the title says it's a 1975, not sure if that really makes a huge difference in the wiring, but below is the manual I have which includes the wiring diagrams, so I should be good. Wish me luck on installing the correct relay and wiring everything correctly. 😀

Also, does anyone know of any tutorials that show me how to actually read/interpret the wiring diagrams.

Thanks for all your help.

jsmout4 · January 28, 2017, 08:57 PM

Just s a follow up. I installed the mini starter first just to see if, in fact, the starter relay was the problem, but it started right up...it barely had to even turn over all the way before it started...so much smoother. I also bought the following shield/seal that I have read that should be installed with the mini starters it, but I could not get the starter to fit flush, so i didn't use it. I hope it won't cause a problem down the road.

http://store.440source.com/Lightweight-Starter-Shield-New/productinfo/122-1001/

At some point I do intend to install the correct stock starter relay and replace the wiring, because everything looks pretty rotted down there. Project 2 of 125.2564248 projects complete! On to the next one.

Warren · January 29, 2017, 10:24 AM

Also, does anyone know of any tutorials that show me how to actually read/interpret the wiring diagrams.

Regarding your comment, identifying each component and what they do. i.e. the constant duty relay, starter relay, (i.e., what is a 'relay'),various switches, lights, motors, etc. Google is your friend to explain each of the functions. For me, following the
wiring diagram from point to point is the biggest problem, those lines get a little close. Get some good testing tools,
a quality VOM, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-26200. Use shrink tube on your terminal ends, no loose wires, clean all grounds, wiring should be kept orderly.