Starter battery is being drained

[Oz]

From: ClydesdaleKevin  (Original Message)
Sent: 6/20/2005 4:03 PM

I knew I should have put a deep cycle battery or two in place, but I always learn the hard way!

The battery we have right now is a marine starting battery, with 600 cold cranking amps.  It works fine when the Ark is cold, but when she heats up, especially if I'm running the water pump/etc off the same battery, I get zilch, nada, zero at the key!  Not even a click!

If someone hooks me up to thier jumper cables, she starts right up!

Long story short, I'm hooking up a big marine deep cycle/starting battery tomorrow, with 900 CCA.  I already added a marine deep cycle battery charger to my system, so for now I'm going to wire it to this battery so I can keep it trickle charged when we are hooked up to shore power or the generator is running.  Eventually, if we ever pass an RV supply place that sells relays and MOM switches, I'm going to hook the regular starting battery back up, get another one of these coach batteries, and wire it all in properly.

Here's my question:

Is it possible that the battery I have is just too small if its discharged just enough?
Also, could it be something other than the battery?  Is coincidence the factor here?  I have read the posts here about starters getting hot and not working, and then acting normal once they cool down.  Could this be it instead?  It takes a while to flag someone down to jumpstart you, so could the cooling of the starter really be what's doing it?  If so, do I need a new starter?  Seems like an awefully big coincidence, since it starts right up when jumped...but was just wondering.

Anyhow, we also bought one of those emergency jumpstarters...that way we won't have to wait for someone to jump us...lol.

By the way, the alternator is working just fine.  I get 14.8 volts at the battery with the engine running.

Kev



From: daved27c
Sent: 6/20/2005 5:40 PM

Kev;

If I remember cottectly, a PO of the Ark converted it from 2 batteries to 1. If the alternator is working correctly, then it is either the battery or the starter. The question is how long after you shut it off untill the battery is dead. If it is dead after only a couple of minutes,(like the time it takes to fill up with gas) then the problem is the starter. The starter on my 72(413) used to do the same thing. The old starter actually tested OK at NAPA. I replaced it anyway and the problem is gone.

Dave



From: <NOBR>ClydesdaleKevin</NOBR> Sent: 6/20/2005 6:14 PM
I can turn it off when its hot, and sometimes it will start, and sometimes it won't.  Sometimes it won't start up right after stopping it, like for gas!  That happened once...lol.  The other two times was when we stopped for an hour at a scenic overpass, and when we went shopping.  Both times a jump fixed it, but not right away.  We had to leave it on the jumper cables for a few minutes, and then she fired up.

Maybe I'll go ahead and replace the starter anyway, while I'm recoring the radiator and replacing the other cooling system components.

Kev



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 6/20/2005 8:09 P
M
There are 2 starters,a regular and a heavy duty.Guess which one you want?
Are your heat shields in place? Better find out,I know my 440 has em.You can also  put a blanket over the starter,and add larger thicker battery cables.600 CCA in hot weather,way too low,that 900 CCA sounds much better.Also when you stop,idle a couple minutes,these big blocks heat sink something awful,let those manifolds cool down a bit first before shutoff.

Anything I left off? There was a big thread on this a couple years ago,thats where I learned all this.

Actually,you may want a starter battery that dumps those amps out faster than a deep cycle will.900 CCA,you wont ever regret that!

Remember heat equals resistance to flow.You need more amps and larger wires to  push more current when hot.Thats why you are having hot start problems I would bet.Im tellin' you,been there done that!It stinks.Overbuild that system for your heat problems,you wont regret it,and it doesnt cost much to do those upgrades either.

BooBoo



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/21/2005 11:26 AM

Thankyou thankyou!  I think I'll go ahead and replace the starter with a new heavy duty one, and make sure its heat shielded.  I'll also go ahead and replace the battery wires with the biggest ones I can find.  Looks like I'm gonna be busy in Jersey!

Kev



From: denison
Sent: 6/21/2005 12:44 PM

I think the least expensive auto battery walmart sells should be able to crank a 413 over nicely - assuming the wiring is sound, the starter not baked from the manifold, etc. If it wont start, try measuring the battery voltage - At the Battery Terminals, while you wife turns the ignition key.

When you say it wont start, could it be a bad neutral safety switch, or any other connection that fails to tell the starter to spin? The real test is to slide under it, and short the two wiring terminals on the starter together. This bypasses all of the ignition circuitry, but also bypasses the safety features. So be sure its not in gear, and cant move along the ground, or it could start up and crush you.

Have you removed the 413 starter before? I find it helps to unbolt the starter relay mounting bracket first, then unstrap the heat shield, but leave it where it is. Then unbolt the starter and wiggle it forward, turn it almost upside down as you remove the heat shield, then you can maneuver it back along the inside of the frame rail. Simple as can be - once you have done it.
By the way, I merely asked for a starter for a 440. I had the old one with me, and could compare them. The rebuilt they got me had the field coil casing of the motor itself about 1/8th longer than the old one, but it fit just fine.

While you are replacing your battery cables, dont neglect the ground/negative side. The cable between the frame and the battery and between the battery and the engine block and alternator case are just as important as the positive ones. I added a ground cable from the frame to the bolt holding the starter motor. This supplemented the corroded cable from the farside frame rail that ran to the back end of the tranny. So there would have been the connected between the tailhousing to the main tranny case. Then from the main tranny case to the engine block, and then to the starter, and to the bracket for the alternator (which was also rusty of course).



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 6/21/2005 3:44 PM

Something Denison forgot to emphasize that he has said before...shine up the metal where your ground connections go,a little corrosion is often not even noticable,and can reall cause you headaches.

BooBoo



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/21/2005 5:57 PM

When I get to New Jersey, in addition to replacing the cooling system components, I'm also going to rewire the whole battery compartment.  I'll use all new wires and terminals, and make sure my grounds and connections are clean and shiney, and brand new.  I'm going to use HeavyTruckHauler's (John's) wiring diagram, and wire in a new MOM type switch, so its all good.  

I've never removed a 413 starter before, although I've replace many a VW started in the past.  The heat shield thing is a new thing for me, so thanks for your advice, Dave Denison!

Also, I did try to jump the starter terminals the first time she wouldn't start, and no dice.  I'm guessing either the starter is overheating, or else the juice is too low when it gets hot from the old battery.  In either case, she'll have all new batteries, and a new starter.  Hopefully all the new improvements to the cooling system and battery system will keep me trouble-free for a while!

Kev



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 6/21/2005 7:07 PM

Could it be the starter?  Absolutely.  But, there are lots of parts places that can check it for you for free.  Auto Zone does that (at least around here).  The biggest headache is you have to take it out for them to test.  (And, they will also test batteries and alternators for free, and those can still be in the rig.)

I had problems somewhat like yours for a while.  I changed the alternator, some of the wiring, plugs, wires, voltage regulator, starter solenoid, etc., etc.  Finally found the entire problem was the starter.  She, too didn't want to turn very well when hot.

And, if that's the problem, MAKE SURE you have a heat shield between your starter and the motor.  That thing gets a touch warm when running!



From: Enigma960080
Sent: 6/21/2005 7:44 PM

Before  you go through the  drama  of  removing a possibly  good starter,   take a  pair of  jumper cables  and  clamp one  end to the  starter frame  and  the other  to a  good  chassis ground and  give it a  try.  I was having a hot-start  problem  in my  old Chieftain.  found out that  when  the previous owner  had the  tranny out,  they  failed  to reconnect  the  ground cable to the  motor.   Since  all  the batteries  were in a  side compartment,  the  ground cable  from the  battery  was  hooked to the  frame....



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/21/2005 10:18 PM

I tried jumping the starter on the occasion it didn't start, and nada.  The only solutions are either a bad battery (which tested at 9 volts before I replaced it), or else the starter is getting too hot to start...prolly from years of baking.

We'll let you know!

Kev



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/25/2005 7:40 PM

It MUST be the starter!  I thought it might be a gremlin in the charging/starting system, but it happened again at a truck stop!

I stopped to let the Ark cool (problem going to be addressed soon), and went to start her...nada.

I decided to check my batteries first:

13.1 volts at the new battery, 13.26 volts at my "old" battery.

I bought a battery jumper thingy, and hooked it up...nada.

I turned the key, and turned the key, and was JUST about to give up...when she started.

Still no idea why she does this, and only when hot.  Prolly the starter.  I'll let y'all know if the problem persists with a NEW starter.

Kev



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 6/25/2005 8:43 PM

No Kevin, not the starter... mark my words, it is probably the ignition switch.  Mine did that when it was starting to go out.

John
 


From: denison
Sent: 6/26/2005 5:20 PM

I don’t want to discount the value of a starter that has been recently rebuilt. If the present starter has been down there since before you got the RV, a replacement might give you piece of mind.
I don’t know what you mean by a battery jumper thingy. If you mean jumper cables, I also carry a set - to help out other motorists.
I would make up a test lamp. A small bulb in a good socket or with wires soldered directly to the bulb contacts, the wires being perhaps 6 to 10 ft long, and with alligator clips at the other ends. This can be used between any two points, the bulb being located where you can see it. With one alligator clip on the smaller terminal of the starter, the other alligator clip connected to a good grounding point - you would know if the starter was getting its "start" voltage when you twist the ignition switch, cause the light would go on.
And if the light doesn’t go on, you could connect 12 volts to the lead that runs to that smaller terminal on the starter - and the starter should turn. If it does, its something else that is failing from time to time. Could even be a wire that had been fried too often, somewhere in a wiring harness.

I have to agree with heavy haul trucker; a 33 year old ignition switch, or neutral safety switch, or starter relay or related connectors, are more likely to fail silently and intermittently than a starter. Its not impossible though.