Monthly warm up. 1997 Warrior. 454 bogs with throttle

[Rickf1985]

At least on yours that used the same frame rail as the original when they put on the extension. A lot of them they just use a piece of C channel that is not the same size and they half bum weld it at that. A straight across weld is not really good on a frame although this one is beyond the suspension and frame twist area for the most part. Angle iron will introduce stress points at the ends since it will not have any flex in two dimensions where a flat plat bolted to the side would be able to flex in the same plane as the frame rail and as long as the corners of the plate are rounded and ground so they have a bevel where they meet the frame there will be no induced stress points. And bolting instead of welding allows for microscopic movement between the plate and the frame to also prevent stress fractures along the welds. I would make the plate the full width of the frame rail and at least 6", preferably 8", on either side of the weld with 4 5/8"-11 grade 8 bolts and flat washers per side of weld. Torqued to 160 Ft./lbs.. 5/8-18 fine thread would be a better choice at 180 Ft./lbs.. I always used fine thread on all of my jobs. Mainly because I had a supplier of surplus military hardware near me and I bought the stuff by the hundreds of pounds. But here is a good idea of what you could go with.


https://www.boltdepot.com/Hex_bolts_Zinc_plated_grade_8_steel_yellow_5_8-18.aspx

[FarPoint]

Thanks for the plan, Rick. As far as the spare tire carrier goes, the Winnebago site shows a spare tire carrier above the rear bumper and basically flat against the rear wall if you have the 19.5 wheels- which I do. This under mount spare tire carrier is supposedly only when equipped with the 16ââ,¬Â rims. And believe me I know why! Iââ,¬â,,¢m wondering if I can find a 19.5 Alcoa rim - this steel one is heavy. But I think Iââ,¬â,,¢ll keep it where it is and maybe adapt one of those winch up systems similar to on my Dodge Ram pickup. I have one of those dual level trailer hitches that allows you to have a bike rack as well as towing a light trailer. Iââ,¬â,,¢ve already fitted the bike rack, bikes, and the small inflatable so it all works, but thereââ,¬â,,¢s not going to be any room back there for a spare tire to hang out. Under the neath it goes.
Iââ,¬â,,¢m going with your plan 100% on the flat plate and the bolts, so can hardly wait to get out the 1/2ââ,¬Â Milwaukee heavy duty 110V drill and see how many times I get it jammed in the holes as the drill bit breaks thru.

[Rickf1985]

When I had my shop I used to do a lot of modifications and 4X4 conversions so I had a Mag-drill. Very pricey! But if you can find a place to rent one for a half day you will be glad you did. You can clamp the plate in there and drill through both the plate and frame and have perfectly fitting holes. You are not going to be able to pull that off with a hand drill. You can come close but if you are going with 5/8" bolts you are not going to do that in one step.

[TerryH]

A Mag-drill also has a huge safety benefit over a 1/2 inch drill with a 5/8 bit through steel. The hand drill, when it jams, has the potential to break bones. Ever notice how difficult it is to release the trigger when a drill jams? Somehow it is not the normal first reaction to let go of the trigger.

[Rickf1985]

Yep, and I have the scars to prove it. The newer 20 volt lithium drills will put a real hurting on you too. On the older 1/2 inch drills I would put a breaker bar or a long steel rod through the handle and brace it against the frame so when it grabbed that took the force and not me. Worked great until the handle broke and ripped the wire out, sparks everywhere and in a real close quarters situation that was not fun. Bought the mag-drill shortly after that episode.

[FarPoint]

Got the metal. 4ââ,¬Â x 3/8 x 24ââ,¬Â.
Got the mag drill. Rented it for Saturday, but they close at 1:00PM, AND Monday is a holiday - so Iââ,¬â,,¢ve got it till Tuesday for the price of a one day rental. (Was seriously thinking about buying one as Iââ,¬â,,¢ve used them on job sites before and theyââ,¬â,,¢re definitely the way to go)
I do have a question though - and it may be difficult to tell from my sideways photo - but the actual frame has two large holes already just ahead of the join. The plan is to use 4 bolts on each side of the joint, and Iââ,¬â,,¢m wondering if I should just pick up those two existing holes and drill two more on the front half? Theyââ,¬â,,¢re haphazardly located, and are slotted.
Maybe just 4 fresh holes each side of the join?


Thanks for all the input!
More sideways pics over the weekend.....

[Rickf1985]

The slotted holes are most likely the original holes for the bumper brackets. You can use them but if it were me I would use a longer plate and still drill at least four matching holes. The matching holes will give you the strength for tongue weight on the trailer hitch. They are what are helping hold up the rear of the frame. The extra holes in the frame are freebies and if you decide to use them it can't hurt and they will always help, especially with lateral strength. That frame has not failed by now it probably never will but I am a firm believer if being absolutely sure. I ran a heavy tow truck for years and I can't tell you how many RV's I had to tow with the tail end of the frame broken off. 90% of them were from towing a car or boat trailer and they hit a dip in the road. There was one particular spot on a secondary road that was famous for breaking RV's in that area and got at least 25 of them. It was nothing more than a dip in the road. But when you hit that dip the downforce from the trailer can add up to a ton or more on the hitch! RV hitches were made for pulling a toad with no real tongue weight, just a tow bar.
One more note, on the bolts, be sure to size the length of the bolts so you have the smooth shoulder of the bolt in the hole and not the threads. Use a flat washer (grade 8) on both sides of the frame and this will give the room needed to give you shoulder in the hole without running out of thread. You can also go with a lockwasher on each, also grade 8. The smooth part of the bolt will be a snug fit in the hole which is what you are looking for. The only thing better would be rivets and hot rivets are an art best left to old time boilermakers and ironworkers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRk4MtK4as4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLtfgM2xabo

[FarPoint]

Great ideas, and thanks for the step by step. The shoulder length on the bolt thing would have probably dawned on me as I was lying on my back in the dirt on Sunday - 20 miles from the bolt store.
Depending on how well the mag drill goes, Iââ,¬â,,¢ll try to use the existing holes as bonus holes, and drill the additional 4 on the original frame side of the join as well. If I mark and drill them first, they will help act as a clamp to position the plate while drill the all new holes
I like a bit of overkill on this type of thing as well. Although the extension is short, and my planned towing is light - ya never know whatââ,¬â,,¢s gonna end up back there.
More soon- lets hope the mag drill has lots of flux density!

[FarPoint]

Iââ,¬â,,¢ve mentioned earlier that I had an old Dodge class A that I used to tow around my race boat. The boat and trailer werenââ,¬â,,¢t too heavy ( all high tech composites and thin) but I did have a custom rear bumper made up as the motor home didnââ,¬â,,¢t come with a hitch. I purchased some heavy wall square stock to resemble the original bumper, purchased a hitch receiver, had heavy mounts made up, and had it all professionally welded. Then I had the whole thing galvanized and bolted to the frame. And I towed that boat all over northwest for years.
With two pit bikes mounted on top of the bumper.
Never a glitch. And the thing was still intact when I saw it last year.


But I never did check the frame for any extensions!
Not a good way to find the weak link in the system. Oh well - lucky I guess.

[FarPoint]

After looking at everything, I increased the length of the metal brace to 30 inches. Made a bunch of things more convenient.
Got all the bolts - had to go 5/8 coarse thread grade 8 to be able to get a decent shoulder. If I went fine thread I was only able to get them in 4ââ,¬Â lengths. Way too long. Had to settle for 2 and a half inches though.
Anyway, got one side basically done - gotta love that Milwaukee Mag Drill!
Heres a photo part way through - and itââ,¬â,,¢ll probably post here sideways. Apologies in advance.
Iââ,¬â,,¢ll have a total of 6 bolts on either side of the join.
The other side is gonna be tougher - the generator is kinda in the way of the mag drill. Figure may way around that one tomorrow.
Thanks for all the tips.
Iââ,¬â,,¢ll round all the corners , bevel the edges and throw on some rust paint before final bolt up.

[FarPoint]

Two more holes to go.

[Rickf1985]

Good job! That frame will last longer than the rest of the vehicle.

[TerryH]

A mag drill is a very utilitarian tool. Especially when you are laying on your back in a contorted position, on a ladder or scaffold. Great deal on your rental! Would a stubby bit help for the other side? Most jobbers carry them.

[FarPoint]

The mag drill made it possible to do the job injury free. It even missed my head when the dog unplugged it for me.
A stubby wouldnââ,¬â,,¢t have helped on the other side due to the generator hanging down. I thought about pulling the generator - but actually managed to get 11 holes drilled with the mag drill, so only drilled 1 with the hand held. I just didnââ,¬â,,¢t have as much freedom with the bolt locations. Random pattern is probably stronger anyway.
And did I say - the Mag Drill is the ONLY way to do this job.
Here a picture of the original REINFARCEMENT plate beside the new reinforcement plate.
And it wonââ,¬â,,¢t matter if the pic is sideways!,

[Froggy1936]

Hi I think the orientation of the photos is controlled on the camera ?  Frank

[FarPoint]

So, back to the original issue with the engine bog.
Iââ,¬â,,¢m gonna pull out my injectors and send em in to get checked and cleaned along with another batch Iââ,¬â,,¢m doing.
And, while I was in there, I noticed a vacuum line ( small, hard plastic one) that had burned off.
It runs to the heater / AC control on the panel from some switched device on the top of the intake manifold. So there was an open vacuum port, and the other thing that runs off that device is the idle vacuum diaphram on the TBI. I put some vacuum to it and the diaphram moved to allow the throttle blades to close a bit. Always thought the idle was a bit high....
Havenââ,¬â,,¢t started it to see - now tracking down my broken manifold stud and have the spark plug wires off.
PCV valve appears NFG as well. Itââ,¬â,,¢s just a check valve isnââ,¬â,,¢t it? If so - definitely NFG.

[TerryH]

Here a picture of the original REINFARCEMENT plate beside the new reinforcement plate.
And it wonââ,¬â,,¢t matter if the pic is sideways!,

To bad Winnebago didn't see this photo some 30 years ago.

[Rickf1985]

Yep, some good work there. The PCV valve is more of a regulation valve than a check valve but if you shake it and it does not rattle it is bad. If it is old just replace it, they are cheap. All the PCV does is regulate the crankcase pressure but if it clogs then pressure builds and you get leaks at the main seals and things like valve covers start to leak and you will get a ton of blowby. The small vacuum line that was broken would have probably caused your heater controls to not select the right positions and as you noticed the idle speed. That is an anti-stall solenoid I believe and not the speed control. Speed control on the first generation of units was still by way of a screw on that solenoid. Unless your MAP sensor was on the same line as the broken one (and it shouldn't be) then it most likely is not changing that setting. But best to go over all the hoses. You mention a broken manifold stud, that could be an issue in how it runs. If the exhaust manifold is leaking it will actually be leaking both ways, it will be blowing exhaust out but it will also be pulling oxygen in and that will affect the O2 sensor which in turn will affect the mixture to the injectors.

[FarPoint]

Aargh.
2 studs actually. And I havenââ,¬â,,¢t even tried to undo the others. I wonder if I ca get a small nut cracker on those nuts, so as not to add to my problem. Itââ,¬â,,¢s on the left side which is the least accessible. And the mag drill ainââ,¬â,,¢t gonna help on this one.
If I can crack those nuts, clean up the existing threads ( if any) then maybe use brass nuts to ease future breakage issues, then all i have to concentrate on is getting out two studs.
Dream on......


Thanks for the input Rick!

[FarPoint]

Hereââ,¬â,,¢s a pic of the dog that yanked the plug on the mag drill. Comedian.

[Rickf1985]

And he is still laughing! Beautiful dog. I just rescued one a couple days ago. Came complete with a Russian passport. I don't have any decent pics yet, she is still in seclusion most of the time but once she gets acclimated I will get some.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Hereââ,¬â,,¢s a pic of the dog that yanked the plug on the mag drill. Comedian.

What a beautiful doggo!  Belgian Shepherd?

Kev

[FarPoint]

OK- so it looks like I may have the camera thing under control. Yep- just hold the phone vertically rather than going panorama.
The dog is a purebread German Shepherd (SG1 rated) longhair. But you can certainly see where the Belgian Shepherds came from when you see Luna. The day we took that pic we met a Belgian on that trail and the faces were very similar - but the Belgians Iââ,¬â,,¢ve seen tend to have even more hair.
Congrats on your new dog Rick. Iââ,¬â,,¢m glad to hear youââ,¬â,,¢ve rescued an animal in need. And youââ,¬â,,¢re right - just a bit of time and you too will have a great helper. Ours is certainly my best buddy - she goes everywhere with me, but is at home with mom every night.
I managed to hook up the vacuum line from the heater controls to that unit on the intake manifold, and my idle did drop when the vacuum canister began to operate. But there are a couple of other weird issues - Iââ,¬â,,¢ll try to get a handle on them today so I can make some sense here.
Thanks for all the pointers!

[ClydesdaleKevin]

OK- so it looks like I may have the camera thing under control. Yep- just hold the phone vertically rather than going panorama.
The dog is a purebread German Shepherd (SG1 rated) longhair. But you can certainly see where the Belgian Shepherds came from when you see Luna. The day we took that pic we met a Belgian on that trail and the faces were very similar - but the Belgians Iââ,¬â,,¢ve seen tend to have even more hair.
Congrats on your new dog Rick. Iââ,¬â,,¢m glad to hear youââ,¬â,,¢ve rescued an animal in need. And youââ,¬â,,¢re right - just a bit of time and you too will have a great helper. Ours is certainly my best buddy - she goes everywhere with me, but is at home with mom every night.
I managed to hook up the vacuum line from the heater controls to that unit on the intake manifold, and my idle did drop when the vacuum canister began to operate. But there are a couple of other weird issues - Iââ,¬â,,¢ll try to get a handle on them today so I can make some sense here.
Thanks for all the pointers!

Luna is beautiful!  Gotta love the long hair GSDs!  There are even wire haired GSDs...they just aren't popular here in the USA.  Beautiful doggo!!!

Kev

[FarPoint]

Thanks Kev! I have to heap most of the praises on the breeder, and the trainer she recommended.
And thanks for all the tips and procedures I got here on the frame reinforcements. Once I had sanded the rust off around the existing join, and pulled off the mini factory patch plate, I could really see how weak the extension would be. And mine is short. Hate to think about the longer ones out there running around.
Everyone that tows anything should at least get down there, clean up the area and have a look.
Then go get a Mag Drill. Do not do this job freehand.
Anyway- hereââ,¬â,,¢s a last view of my job completed, painted, bolted and torqued up. It will never look this good again.


AARGGGHHHH- sideways again! Oh well. It wasââ,¬â,,¢t camera orientation after all.