Points to Electronic Ignition Conversion: any benefit

[SeaRaySRV16O]

Sent: 5/21/2005 9:52 AM

I have been hunting for an electronic ign. system for my '72 413 in the junk yards. So far nothing acceptable turned up.

MoPar shows a complete kit for the 413-426W-440RB & 426 Hemi engines p/n P3690428.

Also lists the small block as p/n P3690426 & the 361-383-400 p/n P3690427.

Found what appears to be a good website for install instructions while searching. Maybe this is already posted elsewhere and I possibly missed it. Anyway, the instructions are detailed and look to be accurate for anyone doing a conversion. Please comment if you spot anything that don't look right.

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Electrical/Electronic/

Have a good day all....

Regards,

Robert Donley
Jenison, MI   

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Sent: 5/21/2005 10:18 AM


Is there really any benefit to converting from points to electronic ignition?  What is all of your opinions? From my years working on VW aircooled bugs and buses, I've encountered quite a few conversions, and in my opinion electronic ignition doesn't make the engine run any better than properly adjusted points.  In some cases, the engines ran so poorly with the conversion kits that I converted them back to points. The only advantage I can see is to tick the points adjustments off the regular maintenance list.  It takes all of 5 minutes to check and adjust your points, and to clean the contacts.  Points are dirt cheap. Is the conversion really worth the cost? Kev

[SeaRaySRV16O]

Sent: 5/21/2005 11:17 AM

You may be 100% correct if you look at it from a cost/benefit ratio. These old truck engines that are not intended for high rpm's don't need to be able to crank to 6,000 rpm, but I look at it from the standpoint of eliminating mechanical points from the list of things that can wear out or need adjustment or replacement.

The MoPar breakerless system with an ECU will provide much better timing accuracy and more spark than the old breaker/points system. The reluctor/pickup coil once properly installed should never need further adjustment. I like that. A better spark throughout the practical RPM range is also something these older engines will benefit from. I believe it was about 1972 that Chrysler began converting to the electronic system. Unfortunately, my '72 rig was not one that got the upgrade. I'm just 33 years late with the engineering change. Ha ha ...

Regards,

Robert Donley
Jenison, MI

[olivereaman]

Sent: 5/21/2005 1:23 PM

Sea Ray, I was wondering about those kits, are they still available from Dodge? And if so, would you know the cost of the kit? I'm with you about eliminating the problems associated with breaker points. My wife isn't quite as good as I am about getting the tools out and tinkering. And there are times that she will take Winnie and meet me some place after I get done working. Nostalgia might be nice, but a better and simpler mouse trap is always better. If I can eliminate one more source of potential problems, it will usually make my life a little easier. 

[denisondc]

Sent: 5/21/2005 4:11 PM

I wonder if you folks are actually getting more reliability. I dont know what electronics are inside the mopar ignition module, but I know I cant repair it at the roadside if I dont carry a spare; the modules could fail and leave you stranded. Same for the pickup coil inside the distributor.
I carry spare ignition points and condenser, and I routinely change my points and condenser about every 20k miles or 5 or 6 years, whichever happens first.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Sent: 5/21/2005 6:48 PM

I have got to agree with Denison on this one.  If you have points, there is no reason to replace them with electronic ignition.  Replacing the points and condensor every 5 or 6 years really doesn't add much to the maintenance list...and checking/adjusting/cleaning them takes what, five minutes every time you change the oil?  Bah...I've run old V-Dubs with points for so many miles and through so many variable and conditions that I just can't see the "point"...lol...of fixing something that ain't broke.

By the way Denison...do you have a good resource for buying points and condensors?  All my local auto shops look at me like I have 2 heads when I tell them I have a 1971 Dodge/Chrysler 413 engine.  Only Napa lists it at all (under Chrysler), and thier parts list is short.

Kev 

[SeaRaySRV16O]

Sent: 5/22/2005 11:26 PM

olivereaman...

I have not yet priced them out, but the P/Ns I took out of a MoPar publication. They should be goodand I assume still available, since people are still doing the conversions.

You might want to check out this website:

http://www.fourforty.com/techstuff/ignition.html

Regards,

Robert Donley
Jenison, MI

[Movinyou1]

Sent: 5/23/2005 2:53 AM

I don't think I've ever heard a Chrysler electronic control box or pick-up coil go bad on the original electric ignition. Now on the other hand, a ballast resister Will go bad once in a while. Just like the point system, if you carry a spare, you should stay out of trouble. And, the last time I checked, the part # is still good thru Mopar Performance. You can get the original plug wires thru them as well.

[denisondc]

Sent: 5/23/2005 8:56 PM

Kevin: i confess that I go into an auto parts place and lie to them. I say I have a 440 in a 71 or 72 van or pickup truck. They points they bring out are the right kind, and the condenser may have a copper ribbon connection, instead of the wire with a terminal. Then I ask them to get me the condenser version with the wire on it. This is normally forthcoming. The last time I bought points I was asked if I wanted the good ones, for $27, or the cheap ones for $8. I took both. The good ones have been in now for about 6k miles, and the cheap set is a 2nd spare. I normally change the points about each 12k anyway, and would buy another "better" quality set when I do.
If you look for business that sell engine parts, like pistons and overhaul gasket sets, for fleets of trucks, I find they are likely to know that a 413-1 is a truck engine. I still need to find such a place down here in Hidalgo and Cameron county Texas.
I have seen several Winnies sitting looking unused around this part of the country, including one with two doors. I have handed out some of our logos and URLs. Around here internet access is not such a common thing as in the nations capitol. Nor is being able to speak english. We have gone into Walmarts here, and restaurants, and dealt with folks who simply didn't speak any English.

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 5/23/2005 11:43 PM

"I don't think I've ever heard a Chrysler electronic control box or pick-up coil go bad on the original electric ignition. "

Good  ole BooBoo has to rain on your parade.I've had both go bad

FWIW,put me in the electronic ignition camp.

BooBoo

[tymhoff]

Sent: 5/24/2005 11:26 PM

I've also had my original electronic box go out on my Indian. It was giving way too much dwell and wouldn't start. Got a new one at Autozone for less than $20 and it fired right up. Still wouldn't leave a points system on it if it had come with it. Just one less thing to have to maintain.

[Oz]

Had mine go out too.  Bought one cheaply at NAPA (as well as 2 extra ballast resistors) and keep them as spares in the RV at all times.

[denisondc]

Sent: 5/25/2005 8:40 PM

If my RV had come with electronic ignition I would keep it, but it came with points, so I will keep that. I was delighted when i bought mine to find that previous owners had done essentially no modifications. That way the service manual, the wiring diagrams, the parts catalog, all still applied. No mysteries. i hope anyone who modifies his RV makes a detailed description of what was done - and a wiring diagram to make. And provideds it to the next owner of course.

[rugar20]

Sent: 5/26/2005 12:20 AM

I found a coversion kit that comes with complete instructions from Mancini racing
they specialize in Mopar parts. Also if you want to just get rid of the points there is an item out there made by pentronix that you remove your points slide a collar on under the rotor and put in a electronic switch. Looks like an interesting product do not know how well they work though


approx 250 for the mopar kit  but if you go to manciniracing.com there is another kit  made by them much cheaper around 160 

[JCMAC]

Sent: 9/21/2005 6:59 PM

Robert,
  I have a '72 D22C with a 413RB engine and when I bought it about 20 years ago, it had the Chrysler electronic ignition... and still does.  Seems to work fine over the 20K miles I have put on 'ol Winne.  I put a set of Autolite HD spark plug wires on and run Champion 4405 Truck Plugs.
  I have the instructions with the PN of the ignition, if you need any data from it.

John

[SeaRaySRV16O]

Sent: 9/21/2005 10:18 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the info John. I am still looking for a junkyard deal. As I understand it, electronic ignitions have a much higher voltage spark and can be calibrated much more accurately than the points/breaker system. Once it's dialed in to fire at the correct time, there is little else to ever adjust. Plugs will outlast a conventional system by 50K miles or more(not that I expect to put that many miles on the old girl).

Regards,

Robert Donley

[stanDman111]

Perhaps some time we can talk about the five (5) states that a condenser or capacitor can have, and how they actually work. = would be interesting to know?

[Rickf1985]

I went to a MSD 6AL on my Jeep CJ-7 with a 401 AMC engine in it years ago due to the big cam in it and the slightly adverse conditions I tended to use it in. BIG difference in the way it ran. Again, nothing more than changing the ignition box with no other changes. This thing would run on it's side with gas dumping into the carburetor flooding it out but it would still fire the plugs. The difference with the 6AL is that it fires the plug 6 times each firing cycle up to 3,00 RPM if I remember correctly. This is microseconds apart and can barely be seen on a scope but it works and works well. When I put the 454 in the Jeep it had the HEI so I did not run the MSD and I think the MSD ran better. It definitely handled flooded conditions better.

[DRMousseau]

Sent: 5/21/2005 10:18 AM


Is there really any benefit to converting from points to electronic ignition?  What is all of your opinions?

Well OF COURSE there is!!!! Fewer parts to wear, less maintenance, dependability, eh,.... everything that todays unknowledgeable, unskilled, uninformed, modern consumer WANTS!!!


Is it better,.... in some ways, YES! But only if the knowledgeable, skilled, and well informed can actually utilize it such a manner to an advantage. And a points system will require the same!!!! Maybe more so!!!


Personally,... I like the versatility and ease in which points can be quickly and easily adjusted to meet my required needs at any particular moment for the task immediately at hand,.... perhaps a long trip in hilly country, or maybe a lot of stop-n-go travel in big busy urban areas.


But then,.... I luved the "spark-lever" of Fords "A" models and the left-hand cable control of my old '49 HD panhead. They weren't JUST for starting ease.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Ralph, I went to a MSD 6AL on my Jeep CJ-7 with a 401 AMC engine ...

I went with a MDS 6A and the stock Mopar electronic distributor on my 78 Chieftain.  Performs well and usually starts easy if I do not let it sit for months.

[demon]

I totally get this. I drive a 1964 VW bus daily. It still has points in a rebuilt engine that i built for it. I keep an extra points and condenser in it but I have never needed them. I have seen the pertronix and cheaper chinese electronic ignitions go bad . I know this will never leave me stranded and I drive this bus all over the state. I have lots of friends that swear by electronic but like you said, you can check your points. Then again I really want to convert the whole engine to fuel injection so theres that!

[udidwht]

Sent: 5/21/2005 10:18 AM


Is there really any benefit to converting from points to electronic ignition?  What is all of your opinions? From my years working on VW aircooled bugs and buses, I've encountered quite a few conversions, and in my opinion electronic ignition doesn't make the engine run any better than properly adjusted points.  In some cases, the engines ran so poorly with the conversion kits that I converted them back to points. The only advantage I can see is to tick the points adjustments off the regular maintenance list.  It takes all of 5 minutes to check and adjust your points, and to clean the contacts.  Points are dirt cheap. Is the conversion really worth the cost? Kev

One big problem...(owner of 72 VW Westy hardtop w/2056cc Massive Type-4)

The quality of today's points and condenser is utter crap. Easily verified over on 'The Samba'. Buy any electrical ignition item for ACVW and the part is made in Russia, India, China...all are crap.

I currently run a Bosch SVDA with a Pertronix I purchased back in 2005. Has been rock solid since I installed it. Won't happen today with a point & condenser set. I've also replaced the Blue coil with a Flamethrower coil and run NGK triple electrode copper
plugs. Bosch no longer makes W8CC or W7CC non resistor plugs. Heads are new re-worked AMC 42x36mm heads from HeadflowMasters with Porsche swivel adjusters.

The advantages of 'Point replacement module'

1. No points to wear and/or pit (they all do)

2. Little to no timing scatter if distributor shaft is on worn side.

3. Plugs live longer life (due to no wearing points)

4. No condenser needed or to fail

5. All that leads to longer plug life.

Bosch is no longer making many of the tune up parts anymore for ACVWs and what little is being made is not being made in Germany (China, Russia, India) As for plugs/wires I only use or recommend NGK.