Filling LP/propane gas tank. Need OPD valve conversion?

[mikekaidan]

 
Sent: 3/24/2005 9:57 AM

Since I purchased my old Brave, haven't had to refill the LP tank yet... though getting ready for my first "big" trip into Baja, need to do that. In looking at the tank, am i gonna have the same issue I had with my BBQ propane tanks? A few years ago they stopped refilling those tanks unless  the valve was retro fitted with the new "triangular" valve and of course the tank itself had a date on it...... how about the on RV? Same issues, or no? Thanx guys... Happy trails!

Mike

[denisondc]

Sent: 3/24/2005 11:01 AM

     Much the same issues.  If the tank is the upright type I believe it has a tank life date date beyond which no-one with a business license is supposed to fill it - regardless of the valve type.  Its -manufacture- date should be stamped on it, along with its empty weight.   I believe the tank life is 12 or 10 years, after which you probably have to get a new one.  The requirement to have the OPD type valve, with the triangular handle, was a separate federal requirement.
   Years before the OPD valve requirements existed I went to get a tank refilled that was definitely rusty.  They declined to refill it, saying it was too old.  I said I had not see a date on it.  They replied that if it was too rusty for me to find the date, then it was too old for them to refill.   It was hard to argue with that.   

[mikekaidan]

Sent: 3/24/2005 11:10 AM

Mine is not upright.... does that make a difference? I was affraid I was gonna have to replace it.... let's see... how can I pay for this without my wife knowing?

Thanx

Mike

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 3/24/2005 11:33 AM

So  far as I know, if its the permanent mount, horizontal tank you will have no issues with refilling it.At Least I havent.

BooBoo

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Sent: 3/24/2005 12:06 PM

In the refurb of the Ark, one of the "issues" that I was faced with was whether or not I was going to have to replace OUR horizontal propane tank.

Our Futura is a 1972, but somewhere in its shrouded history someone replaced its original horizontal propane cylinder with a Manchester, equiped with an OPV valve (old style though, without the tri-shaped knob), and dated 1989.

New tanks with valves go for 400 bucks plus, so being the cheap Scot that I am, I did a lot of research.

First, a propane dealer has the right to refuse to fill ANY tank.  Upright or horizontal.  However, the LAW states that with horizontal tanks, no OPV is required, AND there is no specific legislation for permanently mounted tanks regarding having them tested periodically (upright tanks require a recert every 10 years).

That said, the propane distributor STILL has the right to not fill a rusty tank.  Here is what I did:

I took the tank off, including the hose and iron pipe that runs underneith my coach, since they were all rusty and shabby.  I had another hose made at a local industrial supply center, and bought new iron pipes and fittings.  Next, I took my tank and and cleaned off all the rust down to the bare metal.  I masked off the valves and labels, and am now in the process of repainting the tank.  Just waiting for it to stop raining so I can finish!

NOTE:  When removing the rust off your propane tank, do NOT sandblast the cylinder, at least not without PURGING the tank with some sort of inert gas like Argon.  I was lucky when I sandblasted mine...don't take that chance!  After sandblasting, the tank that I was SURE was empty hissed at me when I cracked the valve!  Also, even when just using a wire brush, you can get static electricity sparks, SO MAKE SURE ITS EMPTY!  If your tank isn't rusted too badly, you might just want to use a wire brush to knock off the loose stuff, and then hit it with a rust converter before painting it.

If you paint up your tank all nice, and your valves aren't OPV, you might want to consider just replacing the valves and regulator.  They are a LOT cheaper than replacing a tank!  Mine seem to be OK, so at the most I'm going to buy a new yellow filler cap to make the tank look VERY new to the propane folks, at a whopping cost of 4 dollars at the local RV supply house.

One final suggestion:  If you go the route I am suggesting, do a Google search and type in "Overfill protection valve legislation."  After a little searching, you'll find actual official documention, citing specific laws and statutes, that exempt our tanks.  PRINT THEM OUT!  Keep them in your rig.  That way, if a propane dealer tells you that its against the law to fill your tank for you, you can show him the law.  He might still refuse to fill your tank, but then again, he might fill it knowing its not illegal.

Hope this helps!  Pictures soon of the tank in progress.

Kev and Patti Smith

[Cooneytoones]

Sent: 3/24/2005 10:24 PM

Mike.....You should not have a problem getting the horizontal tank filled....the old horizontal tanks are listed under ACME (staionary) regulations, and the up-right tanks come under DOT (portable) regulations. ACME Tanks have an Automatic  Stop Fill Valve.  That's one of the reasons why ACME Tanks  don't get all the trouble from dealers that the old upright tanks get. They also don't have the 12 year life cycle or need to be re-fitted with new valves....It'll have a gauge (gauge may be hard to read, but is replaceable (most LP Dealers will have the gauge) also, it will have a sight glass, (if there is LP in the tank, it will show liquid in the glass)..... The gauge I believe is a floating type gauge, so tank will need to be empty to replace....as long as the tank hangers are good and piping & lines are all good, You won't need to replace it. Just clean the outside of the tank. Remember.....To check for any leaks on piping & lines if tanks not been filled for a long time....and please, don't use a match to check for leaks, use water with some dish soap added, it will bubble if you have a leak...Some of the older horizontal tanks have a leak detector which will close the valve if a leak is detected. Now, you shouldn't have any to say anything to the wife except, "are you ready to go yet"....Good Luck.
Timmy

[HeavyHaulTrucker]

Sent: 3/25/2005 12:15 AM

This has brought up an interesting subject.  I have been told that I cannot refill my horizontal tanks anymore -- but not because they are non-opd.  It seems that when the PO had the tanks re-certified in 2002, the propane dealer who did it SCRATCHED the new date into the paint & metal on the collar of the tank.  Well, the regulations here in Texas say that the re-certification must be STAMPED into it -- and both the Flying J and my RV park have told me that they will not fill them again.

The owner of my RV park has also told me that the "horizontal application" exemption has been dropped from the regulations now, and that ALL rv propane tanks have to have an OPD valve on them.  I don't know if that is the federal or state regulations, though.

That will be something to take into account if you are coming to Texas or if you live here.

John

[Cooneytoones]

Sent: 3/25/2005 10:59 AM

Kev.......Good point, you should keep you tank as clean on the outside as possible, and paint it white or a light reflecktive color every few years....This will save a lot of headaches when going to a strange place to fill. Most employees at LP fill stations are not up on the current laws, and the print out is a great idea.  Prinyted on out this morning. Now some laws can change state to state.
Here's the current federal law:
For propane cylinders* in the 4 lb. through 40 lb. propane capacity range, the Code requires for them to be equipped with an OPD, as follows: New cylinders for vapor service which are fabricated after September 30, 1998; as cylinders are requalified after September 30, 1998 through March 31, 2002; effective April 1, 2002, before a cylinder is filled.  *All references to 'cylinders' applies to only those in the 4 lb. through 40 lb. propane capacity range. Also, the last page of this document contains information on the service life and inspection of cylinders. (12 years)

The 2001 edition of NFPA 58 (the LP-Gas Code) recognizes that horizontally oriented cylinders that were manufactured prior to October 1, 1998, are unable to be retrofitted with the OPD's. As a result of this fact, the Code now exempts these cylinders from having to be retrofit with OPD valves. Any such cylinder must have a label affixed to it to inform the user and the refiller that an OPD valve is not installed.

Some states Have not adopted this code. But the code only affects tanks from 4 lbs to 40 lbs.....The 80 lb horizontal tanks are exempt for now. For those of you who have up-right tanks.....the following  states that enforce the OPD issue...Indiana is one of them, by my suppier (Ferrallgas) knows horizontal tanks are exempt from the regulation.

Just some more info for all of us.....

Timmy

NFPA 58 Edition Adopted
and OPD Enforcement -  by State
(updated Sept. 29, 2004)



Alabama

1998 edition - OPD requirement not enforced


Alaska

1989 edition - OPD requirement not enforced


Arizona

1989 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


Arkansas
1998 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


California

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Colorado

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Connecticut

1995 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


Delaware

1995 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


Florida

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Georgia

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Hawaii

1989 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


Idaho

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Illinois

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Indiana

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Iowa

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Kansas

1992 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Kentucky

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Louisiana

1995 edition -  OPD required only for new and requalified cylinders.


Maine

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.

Maryland
1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Massachusetts

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Michigan

1998 edition -  OPD requirement is enforced.


Minnesota

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Mississippi

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Missouri

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Montana

1989 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


Nebraska

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Nevada

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


New Hampshire

1995 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


New Jersey

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


New Mexico

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


New York

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


North Carolina

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


North Dakota

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Ohio

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Oklahoma

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Oregon

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Pennsylvania

1992 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


Rhode Island

1995 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


South Carolina

1998 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


South Dakota

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Tennessee

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Texas

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Utah

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Vermont

2001 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Virginia

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Washington

1972 edition - OPD requirement not enforced.


West Virginia

1995 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Wisconsin

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.


Wyoming

1998 edition - OPD requirement is enforced.
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National Propane Gas Association · 1150 17th Street, N.W. · Suite 310 · Washington, D.C. 20036-4623
202.466.7200 · fax 202.466.7205 · info@npga.org   

Like Kev said....Keep your tanks looking good, and you should have no trouble..for NOW...


 

Here's some more detailed info for OPD...

www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=534

Timmy

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Sent: 3/27/2005 10:31 AM

I did another pretty thorough search of the laws, and it APPEARS that horizontal permanent tanks are even exempt from being recertified.  The law is ambiguous on this point, so again, make your tanks look new, and you shouldn't have too many issues.  My tank was made in '89, has the OPV valve, and now looks brand new.  If a propane filler is REALLY anal retentive, the "stamped" cert date is on the bottom rear of my tank, so at least I'll have the sadistic satisfaction of watching them squirm underneith my Ark, right next to the holding tank and sewer outlet, in order to read it...lol.

Kev and Patti Smith

[Oz]

Sent: 3/27/2005 10:41 PM

So, how do these regulations affect the OEM 30 lb uprights?  Is this saying that they can't be used because of the 12 year thing?  I'd really like to keep using them, if I can get the OPD retrofit, since I can carry an additional 1/3 over 20 lb 

From the chart, it appears to me that PA wouldn't require me to have OPDs?  But, when we had a couple of older 20lb tanks to refill, they wouldn't do it because they said they needed OPD valves and we exchanged them. - Sob

[bboat101]

Sent: 3/30/2005 8:50 AM

Guys,
I may be missing something here, but if your tank is 35 years old and very rusty, wouldn't you want to replace the tank? As opposed to hiding things with a fresh coat of paint?

My gosh, you have something made during the Vietnam War era, full of a explosive gas under 100+pounds of pressure! Haven't you ever seen a house explosion (from a natural gas leak) on the news? The house is leveled and surrounding houses are taken out also.

Something to consider.
brian

[OldEdBrady]

Sent: 3/30/2005 10:24 AM

I have two of the tall-type of tanks.  When I first went to get them filled, one they refused.  No OPD valve, and the date stamped on it was about 15 years ago.  I was in a hurry, and didn't want to fool around with it, so I went looking in the place (a local business) that carries (their slogan) "Everything You Could Possibly Think Of--If We Can Find It."  They had a new tank for $50.

A few months later, I saw some of the same tanks at Home Depot, same price.

[Cat Herder]

Sent: 3/30/2005 10:25 AM

I just pulled the horizontally-mounted LP tanks from Casita Bravo (77 24D) and took them in Suburban Propane for "recertification".  Since they are horizontally mounted I was told that they would NOT need new OPD valves (makes sense if you think how OPD's work)  I got away with only a $10 recert fee and the cost of the fill.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Sent: 3/30/2005 2:53 PM

This is all actually simple guys:

Upright DOT tanks (B-B-Q style) 40lbs and below: Requires OPD valve.  Must be recertified once every 12 years.  The more rusty in appearance they are, the more trouble your going to have with them.  Besides, rust eats away the metal and given the propane is around 200lbs of pressure at 100 degrees outside temp you don't want to risk metal failure.  No value to be gained by fighting the OPD valve requirement.  Oh, the OPD valve also closes off the outlet if the tank tips over.
DOT tanks greater than 40 lbs are not considered portable because of weight.  Typical used in a house or permenant campsite setup.  They still use a 80% fill overflow indicator vent port.

ACME Horizontal Tanks (permenantly mounted):  Does not use an OPD valve.  Uses a 80% fill overflow indicator vent port.  No periodic reinspection required however,
If it's in visibly poor shape (rusty) or leaking is apparent (sound or smell), the fill station can refuse to refill them because of questionable integrety.

General
The fill valves themselves can leak.  If they leak when they connect up and start filling the tank, they will stop filling.  There are rubber seals used at the connection that can dry out (been there folks).  Hopefully replacing the seal will be the extent of the problem (the station operator had one in my case).  If valves or other components installed on the tank (e.g. internal magnetic float gauge) are defective, then they have to be replaced AND as far I know the tank has to be recertified to ensure the replaced part (ok the whole shabang) is not leaking.
The 80% fill limit is extremly important and address' 2 issues.

1)  The propane in the tank is in 2 states.  Liquid and gas.  It has a boiling point of -44 degrees (yes minus) at sea pressure.  Under pressure (confined in the tank) that value raises a lot.  Tank pressure is around 200lbs at 100 degrees ambient.  I forget what it is at 32 degrees (was in that recent Trailer life advert e-mail I unfortunantly deleted of the last week or so).   Still, it's a lot.  The 80% fill limit allows the propane gas an expansion area.  The lower pressure can create a flow problem in cold weather though.

2)  Liquid propane will destroy your regulator.  The regulator is only designed to handle gas.  Liquid will freeze it up and/or when it expands will blow the seals/diaphrams in the regulator.  Propane tanks are designed such that the outlet valve is at the top to prevent liquid from getting in the piping system.  The 80% limit makes sure it stays that way.  One of the only cases  where liquid is distributed is for engines that are propane only or gas/propane selectable (my 440-3 was originally).  In those systems, the liguid is turned to gas by a pre-heater (heater hose driven in my case).  The resulting gas then goes through a pressure regulator and distributed to the carburator.  Oh, that liquid tap (valve ) is completely seperate from the house tap (valve).  In the ACME tank pic above, the house valve is on the left feeding the regulator.  The liquid valve is on the far right.  The 2 center valves are for fill and 80% vent.  There is an extra hose on mine (small one along top of valves) which connects to a Extend-A-Stay fitting.  I can use a big external tank or even a B-B-Q tank if needed (backup).  Used it before I got my rig on the road to checkout all my propane systems.
Water vapor can also enter your propane system because of the numerous tank transfers (distribution network) between the factory and your tank.  That can result in cold weather freezing of your regulator.
The chemical additive (that propane smell we all know) can build up in piping (black paste as I understand it) resulting in a restricted flow of gas.
POL valves (used to restrict flow on the high pressure side of the regulator) can close off if you open the tank valve to quickly.  Used to close off supply (drastically reduce actually) if piping system springs a leak (like in a car accident) on either high or low pressure side.  While close when there is to high a flow of gas in the system.  Initial turn on tries to fill the pipe lines and triggers the POL valve to close.  Close supply, wait 1 minute, then open slowly to reset.  POL valves are typically in the tank valve.  They are also in devices like Extend-A-Stay.
Most camp stoves and such have a built in regulator.  You have to use high pressure propane hoses if tapping off the MH's LP tank (Extend-A-Stay, etc.).  Low pressure propane hoses are used on the outlet side of a regulator.

Hope that helps,
Dave

[Cooneytoones]

Sent: 3/30/2005 7:44 PM

Cat hearder,

You actually just paid $10 extra for your propane...Horizontal tanks are Federaly EXEMPT from re-certifcation....but, if that is what it takes to make your supplier happy, than a $10 bribe I guess is a cheap way. Dave (va78cheifton) posts explains it all. The reason horizontal tanks are exempt, because they are not moveable like the upright tanks or bottles, the seems are different, the seems on up-rights are subjuct to bumping & banging, also tanks get dented when moved around. As far as being 35 years old, yes if they are shot, for safety sake get new ones, but most horizontal tanks are under cover, and wil last as long as...who knows, I have a 500 gal tank in my yard, outside, it feeds my house, everything is LP gas.. it's a 1975 model tank, been in the yard (not under any kind of cover) through storms and what not since 1975, gets painted every two years, and still as good as new. So, if it's still in good shape, make it better, if it's poor shape and a supplier won't fill it and you feel it's still good..Pay for a re-cert if it makes the suppier happy or..Find another supplier who knows the NPGA regulations. Keep it in good shape and there should be no problems except for maybe paying a phantom 10 buck re-cert fee....If it is really unsafe, please get a new/newer. one....Getting it filled, and keeping it safe is all that matters.

Just a little info to add to this LP discussion. So folks can figure there LP needs...
Approximately 91,500 BTUs of heat are contained in one gallon of liquid propane. A small 20-pound cylinder (barbecue grill size), properly filled to 80%, offers approximately 430,000 BRU's of heat. This is enough to operate a 25,000 BTU/hour furnace continuously for more than 17 hours.

Timmy

[ibdilbert01]

I may be the only one left still running the original valves.