Converters & charging, no power to light LP accessories

[Idontcare2]

Sent: 9/25/2005

I'm trying to determine if my converter is charging/operating like it should. For some reason, if my coach batteries go dead, I can't light water heater or light reefer on lp mode.  In reading the instructions pertaining to the converter it says that when hooked to shore power, it produces the 12 volts to operate these things and provides a trickle charge to batts. As I said if the batteries are dead, and even being shored up, they (appliances) don't work.  If I charge batteries back up, I can get the stuff to come one.  My thinking is that in theory, one should be able to completely disconnect coach batts and still be able to get the appliances operating???

Secondly, I put a new motor battery in as the old one was seven years old and finally gave.  Today it was low on charge. Barely had enough guts to turn motor.  Upon inspection this is when I stumbled on to a dead coach battery (which is old and probably dead as well).  I'm wondering if it's possibly related to the drained engine battery?  Anyway for an unmeasurable trickle drain to take place between the separate batteries? Could the relay that allows you to tie the batteries together MOM operation be shot an seeping amps between batteries? Nothing showing on the meter.

Shawn
1986 Winnebago Chieftain 33
Chevorlet P-30 454

[Idontcare2]

Sent: 9/25/2005

Answering some of my own questions here. I was able to find a converter test procedure here. www.parallaxpower.com I'll give it a shot tomorrow and hopefully will have my questions answered.  I did some research on marine/RV batteries.  I didn't realize there was some routine maintenance involved and have probably destroyed my battery. Oh well, only money.  Anyone upgraded there converter using the Model 7345RU Retrofit 45amp electronic power converter kit?  How'd it go?

[firebug911]

Sent: 9/25/2005

Depending on your converter set-up, Some switch internal to take the batteries off line and just charge them while providing power to the appliances, lights, 12v.dc stuff.  It defaults back to the batteries and requires 110 volt from your power cord to activate it, (Switch it over to 110v )... Sometimes the switch/relay can stick or hand up, or get bugs/ ants in it and it wont switch.  I have installed a progressive dynamics with a charge wizard that does not use a relay, It floats the batteries and provides power at the same time and when I shut down the genny or unplug the shore power, the 12v dc lights do not even blink or flicker...   The reason I changed to this one was that the battery charger in the old one stopped working.  If you need a relay let me know, I still have the old converter in the shed some place, The relay was still good

[Cooneytoones]

Sent: 9/25/2005

IDCare....These stock converters are inherently inefficient at recharging, especially if the battery is low..aslo if you have a rocker switch that says dual / main / MOM   if it's in the dual position both batteries are receiving a charge and both will run down if it's in the main position on the starting battery will be getting a charge and the Mom switch is just momentary to add a little extra juice to your starter from both batteries...a good battery isolator and a 3 stage charging unit will solve your problems as far as now power on shore power I'm not sure I understand  are you getting 120volts at your receptacles?  Turn on all your house lights while you are unplugged from shoreline, then plug in your shoreline. If the lights blink for a second, your converter is working and switching over from your battery to it's internal 12 volt....also you will hear a small hum coming from the converter and it should be warm to the touch.....here's some good reading in two parts that should answer all your question....click on " the Twelve Volt Side of LIfe" Parts 1 & 2
bart.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/tech.htm

Timmy

[Idontcare2]

Sent: 9/25/2005

I get the 120volt. The problem or question is should the converter allow the operation of 12 volt stuff even if batteries have died.  If it should I have a problem with the converter or somewhere along the way. If not I need to ensure my batteries are adequately charged. The relay is functioning. I took the cover off and had the wife plug power in and could see it activating. My lights get brighter when it gets plugged in and it hums so my deduction is that it is functioning. However, if I attempt to light the water heater or turn the fridge on in LP mode, the automatic lighters (ticking) fails and won't light.  I guess my refined question is might these two appliances be battery dependent? I'll have to chase the wiring down on these.

As far as the dual / main / mom, I understand its purpose and leave it on main unless drving down the road.

I hate troubleshooting 12 volt electrical. And unfortunately a lot of the 12 volt wiring of the unit is in unsatisfactory condition. I've got a lot of work to do.Give me a flat tire anyday......

Firebug, I'll keep that relay in mind and appreciate your offer.

Cooneytunes, I've been researching different converter options as I think an upgrade is in my future. It looks like the sky is the limit as far as pricing goes.  I'm just looking for dependability more than fanciness.  You mention a battery isolater. What does this do?

Thanks for the insight!

[Easybago]

Sent: 9/25/2005

Sounds to me that your problem is with the LP. The ticking would be an igniter and will attempt to fire for a preset time until lit or if it senses that it's not lit. If the LP is out or if your lines are stopped up, the burner goes into a fail safe mode until it's reset. Even if your LP tank is full, your valve is open and the lines are not stopped up, you may have air in the lines. It could take several attempts to fire the burners because the pilot light only allows a very small amount of gas to flow. Also check to see if there is a valve at the water heater and fridge burners. Just a few ideas.

Randy

[Elandan2]

Sent: 9/26/2005

Try hooking your new battery up to the coach side.  I have found that the appliances with electronic ignition will not light if the battery is no good.  I believe that the gas valve won't open unless there is sufficient voltage.  Rick

[Cooneytoones]

Sent: 9/27/2005

Shawn......your 12 volt system should run without a battery if your on shore power....although Rick may be on to something...If your converter is not putting out enough juice on the 12 v side, then maybe there's just not enough voltage to open the LP line which has to have sufficient voltage to start....spiders and little creatures cause havic in all these systems.....make sure your flue or chimney is clean, and the area around the pilot blow it out good... I use an air hose with a blower to clean all the vents.....also mud daubbers like to build little mud nests in any open hole....somebody also said there might be air in the lines...one way to bleed them, not recommended by the manufacturer or me, but I've done it before...Make sure your tank main is open, then Open the main LP inlet line where it enters the fixture....make sure there is no flame, or spark close by, you'll hear the gas start to come as soon as hear it close the line off tight and check with soapy water for leaks. Like I said this is not recommeded..and very dangerous if your not careful absolutely  no flame of spark within 200 ft....then wait about 10 minutes and try to relight....another thing to check, The little pilot tubbing is very small and I would remove it first and see if I could blow air through it, if not that's your problem....
As far as a battery isolator....that is a little device that keeps your starting battery from getting crossed with the house battery and draining either.....due to a short or power loss from one..It completely Isolates each battery. There should be one on your rig......looks like a little ford regulator.....your house positive (+) cable and your staring (+)  battery cable should go to this first, then divert to the house and the engine. The stock ones are junk...they work, but not like a true isolator and not as well as the newer digital ones.....some charging systems (3 and four stage come with an isolator which monitors your batteries condition....they start at about 100 bucks and go up from there.......  I've heard they work well and solve a lot of battery problems.....Hope you find the problem.

Timmy

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Sent: 9/28/2005

Someone else touched on this, and its an easy thing to check/remedy.

Yesterday, while taking a shower, I totally emptied my propane tank...I'm talking VERY empty...not even a trickle at the stove burners.

We had it filled today, and then I tried to start the hot water heater...nada!  The pilot wouldn't light.  (On our Atwood, you have to manually light the pilot).  There was, however, a hissing and some airflow at the pilot tube.  This led me to believe, correctly, that the lines were full of air.  I went inside, and tried to light a stove burner with the lighter.  I had to let it run for almost a full minute before it would light and burn clean and blue.  I shut it off, then lit the furnace pilot...which took almost 2 minutes to finally burn blue and clean.  Then I did the fridge...notice I lit these things, bleeding the lines, starting with what is closest to the propane tank, and working my way back.

The last thing I lit was the hot water heater.  Even after bleeding all the inside appliances, it still took a few minutes for the air to purge from the pilot line.  Even though propane lines are "big", and you would thing that they would bleed quickly, the regulators on our tanks feed the propane in very slowly, and at low pressure.

As far as electrical goes, only our fridge has an electric igniter on it, and its almost new, so I can't be of much help there.  It will light off of shore or generator power.  We don't have coach batteries per se, but I would assume that a properly set-up battery bank will power all the 12 volt systems without being connected to shore or generator...meaning that if its electrical, you either have bad batteries or a charging problem, or your electrical wires need to be trouble-shot.

Idontcare2, I'll make you a deal...I'll troubleshoot any electrical problems you have any day, and you change my flat tires whenever I get one, especially on the back...lmao.

Kev

[70winnie]

Sent: 9/28/2005

This is just a guess, but have you tried starting the appliances with all batteries completely disconnected?  Maybe the converter doesn't have enough juice to power the igniter on its own, or maybe it doesn't have enough juice to power the igniter at the same time it's trying to charge the battery.  If you eliminate the dead batteries from the equation, that might help figure out the problem.

[Idontcare2]

Sent: 10/2/2005

After putting new coach batteries in everything works.  I spoke with a local automotive electrician familiar with RV converters and the inquiry I had about whether or not it will operate stuff without having batteries hooked up.  He explained that some models (particularly older ones) were set up to run in conjunction with batteries and that the principle is similar to an open/closed circuit. i.e., no batteries = open circuit. He went on to say that most newer systems will work independently of the batteries.  Furthermore if your coach batteries are low on charge, they won't fire the igniter just as if your auto battery doesn't have enough cranking amps to turn the engine. Anyway, I guess the lesson learned is to keep the coach batteries maintained. Thanks to all for your troubleshooting assistance!

Shawn