Does my 440 Engine need a Rebuild?

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: TikiMike (Original Message)
Sent: 9/26/2004 6:32 PM

Hoping someone knows of a place near Long Beach California that can do a engine rebuild for my 78 Brave(440). I'm having troubles finding a place. Found only 1 place so far and they wanted between 6000.00-7000.00 dollars. Must be someone more reasonable in Los Angeles. I'm hoping I wont have to salvage it. Its a great surf vehicle.   
   


From: Jim83Itasca
Sent: 9/26/2004 6:53 PM

That is a VERY steep price!
D&M performance (562-946-1473) in Whittier is one fine machine shop and i drive from the low desert (Palm Springs area) and get my engines done from Dave.
My average price has been around $2500.00 for a complete small block engine ready to run "minus the intake".
$3000.00-$4000.00 to R&R is way to much IMHO.

Jim



From: Fellowrvers1
Sent: 9/26/2004 11:55 PM

You can go to O'Reilly's or Auto Zone and get a crate motor 440 between $600
and $1000.That is,if they have these auto parts stores in California where
you are.They come with a warranty.Any local garage can put it in,as long as
they have the right equipment to drop the front axle.Found that out from the
winnebago garage here in town and a garage that does motors here for campers
and charges $1400.



From: denison
Sent: 9/27/2004 6:59 AM

And at least up through 1974, you could remove the engine from the front, with a cantilever hoist. I dont think you even had to take the exhaust manifolds off. I cant recall if it came out with the oil pan on it though. 



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 9/27/2004 10:38 AM

Yes dave is right , I think all the dodge chassis Class A winnes engines come out the front without droping the strait axel . there are some pics of engine removal somewhere in the Photo abumbs .If you find a crate engine , short block or full Block  make shure it's a 440 3  .- Sea Hag 



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 9/27/2004 12:21 PM

Devils advocate,2 autozone engines with nephews,the s10 v6 is perfect,the just installed 360 in Dodge van makes metal grinding noises.Yes they are going to replace it,yes,he gets to  pull and reinstall it.
I have a 50-50 record on them too,different sources.
The shop rebuild at 5 grand is still very very nice,and they gave 12000 mile/12 month full cover,which included a free edlebrock when first one had problems,not a rebuild,a new one.
Sometimes paying more really gets you more?
BooBoo



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 9/27/2004 12:28 PM

The shop rebuild included lots of  NEW parts,like a crankshaft,pistons,rods, and hoses and belts and wires.And built by a Mopar man who restores old Mopars,not assembly line laborers,so I think quality is more job one getting a PRO rebuild.Wish it was cheaper,when 2000 miles from   home I got my moneys worth.
FWIW
BooBoo



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 9/28/2004 11:37 AM

It all depends on what rebuider the auto store is getting their engines from . Jasper engines is out west their some where . they've been around a long time and have a good reputation . Maybe try to find a store that sells Jasper . Sea Hag



From: KEVSWS6
Sent: 9/28/2004 3:00 PM

Are you postive it needs a rebuild?



From: denison
Sent: 9/28/2004 3:27 PM

Good point! If its not burning oil, I would measure the main and rod bearings, having a look at the condition of the crankshaft journals. Its much easier to pull the heads and have them rebuilt than to pull the entire engine. Plus once the heads are off you get a good look at the pitting on the cylinder walls, if any.
I recognize that some folks dont want to rip so far into their motor themselves, or dont have a place to do the work anyway.



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 9/29/2004 9:53 AM

I was wondering the same thing myself , I think a commpression test would be a good way to start . I'd do this before tearing into the engine ,It can tell you alot . unless the rods are definateatly knocking sevearly . Sea Hag



From: TikiMike
Sent: 9/29/2004 10:30 AM

I had no oil in the engine and when I took off the oil cap it was smoking. I had to have it towed home. Just got it back from the third auto shop. Spent over 1000.00 for these three trips. Nobody botherd checking the oil, including me. Just bought it 12 trips ago. 



From: denison
Sent: 9/29/2004 11:50 AM

    It is normal to have some oil vapors pouring out of the filler cap if the engine is hot - but how much of a cloud of vapor is a subjective thing, and it would depend on whether you had removed the cap from the filler in front of the radiator, or the filler cap that is on the rocker cover. 
     In your shoes I would drain out what ever oil was still in the pan, and measure the amount.  If it was more than a quart it could still have been pumping oil through the engine.  You can inspect the oil for shiny metal particles, which would be the shavings from the bearings or the scuffed pistons.  If there are metal shaving you dont need to measure the bearings for wear, as the engine would definitely need rebuilt.  If there are no metal shavings, then my next step would be to measure the bearings.   This is quite a chore, but still easier than a rebuild.    And if the bearings were okay, I might not take the engine out - would plan on a valve job instead. 
   It is possible to send the motor oil off to an analysis lab.  A small airport might have the address for one of the testing labs, since small airplane owners do this oil test to learn about the internal health of their engines.



From: Derrek
Sent: 9/29/2004 12:49 PM

Here is a link to Blackstone Labs. You can contact them via e-mail with your address and they will send you a container that can be used to get the oil sample. Then just simply mail it back to them and they will perform analysis for $20

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/index.html



From: daved27c
Sent: 9/29/2004 11:30 PM

Mike;

Unless I missed something, I have a couple of questions. First, What made you stop and check the oil? Did the engine make alot of noise, or did it stop running? Next, why was it at the three shops you mentioned? Lastly, will the engine turn over with the starter? I know these questions are basic, but I think they are a good starting point.

Dave



From: TikiMike
Sent: 9/30/2004 1:10 PM

I want to thank everybody for the input so far. I had the motorhome in the shop because it would start running like crap after about a 1/2 hour. It seemed like it was missing when climbing a hill or going over 60 mph, or sometimes putting the pedal to the medal. It has a MSD ingnition which one shop discounected. Another shop recounected and put a new Edelbrock carb in it . Before that someone else tried to rebuilding the existing carb. Each time after it was worked on it ran good for awile then crap again. While I was driving it back from San Diego it ran good  . I even ran it up to 75mph to see how it would do. But after 1/2 an hour it started having problems with hills and over 60mph. We stopped for lunch. and as soon as we got back on the freeway it started losing all power and shut down. It wouldnt start up right away. I put 5 quarts of oil in it to try to get it off the freeway. Still no success. Had it towed home and it started then. Sounds kind of like a diesel now. I've got to go back to work now before I get into trouble. Thanks again for the questions and help.        Mike Stone



From: KEVSWS6
Sent: 9/30/2004 7:07 PM

It took 5 quarts of oil! Wow, where did it all go?

Diesel noise doesn't sound promising. There are things you could still check.

Could be out of time. Chain jumped a tooth? Check cap, rotor, distributor shaft, plug wires.

Good Luck!



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 9/30/2004 7:48 PM

I'm about as qualified to make a guess as a monkey but, I have read through every post several times and I noticed a recurring theme to the loss of power after driving a while and on hills.  As many members have advised me in the past, think of the simplest things first.  Have you checked your fuel filters?  Could they be clogged with old, rusty gunk? - Sob



From: TikiMike
Sent: 10/1/2004 1:08 PM

I had the fuel filters replaced when the last shop installed the Edelbrock Carb.  One freind told me, when the engine warmed up it expanded so the rings or valves probably started leaking.  I'm not a mechanic and I've already been to 3 places and spent quit a bit of money. I'm hoping  to get it running without spending a small fortune, or having to return it 3 more times. This sites great. Thanks for all the feedback.



From: michaelhtfd
Sent: 10/7/2004 2:52 AM

A WHILE BACK I HAD A PROBLEM WITH MY DODGE...IT WOULD RUN GREAT (FOR ABOUT A HALF AN HOUR)...GREAT 360 POWER!!!:) THEN WOULD LOSE POWER...NEVER REALLY DROVE IT FOR MUCH MORE THAN THAT...TURNING THE ENGINE OFF (AFTER A HALF HOUR DRIVE), THEN RESTARTING IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE...*UNTIL THE ENGINE COOLED DOWN*.~THIS WENT ON FOR A LONG TIME, AS IT WAS MY "AROUND-TOWN WORK TRUCK"...I THEN LET A BUDDY BORROW IT...HE RAN IT ON THE HIGHWAY FOR 45 MINUTES @ 70MPH...SHUTDOWN, QUIT...NO HOPE...SEIZED THE ENGINE!
***TURNED OUT TO HAVE A BAD OIL PUMP***THE ENGINE WOULD HEAT UP, THE COOLING SYSTEM WAS STRESSED, WORKED HARD AND AFTER A WHILE THE COOLING SYSTEM WOULDN'T KEEP UP WITH THE TEMP (AND THE ENGINE EXPANSION DUE TO HEAT & LACK OF LUBE)...THIS IN RETURNED SEIZED THE ENGINE.---ALL THE WHILE, THERE WAS OIL AND SOME LUBRICATION...BUT NOT ENOUGH!---WHICH CAN ALSO HAPPEN WHEN THE OIL IS LOW...IT WILL RUN FOR A WHILE, BUT ONLY FOR A WHILE...UNTIL THE HEAT WINS, DUE TO LACK OF LUBRICATION.
SOMETIMES, WHEN LUCK IS ON YOUR SIDE, THE ENGINE WILL "COOL DOWN" AND FREE ITSELF UP (AS IT SOUNDS THAT YOURS DID!!??).ALTHOUGH YOURS FREED ITSELF UP, IT SOUNDS THAT DAMAGE WAS DONE...
I WOULD THINK THAT A REBUILT ENGINE IS IN ORDER...I HAVE FOUND ENGINES FOR $1400 (M.H. APPLICATION) ~ONLINE...AS FOR THE INSTALL AND THE SWAP...CHECK WITH CHILTONS RATE GUIDE AND MAKE SURE THAT THE MECHANIC IS QUOTING IN RELATION TO THE BOOK, RATHER THAN THE SIZE OF YOUR POCKET$$$.---$1000 TO "FIX" AND THEN SEND YOU ON YOUR WAY??!!WOW.PROBABALY NOT THE RIGHT MAN FOR THE JOB(S)...GET THE QUOTE FIRST (WRITTEN QUOTE)...ANY MECHANIC THAT HAS BEEN AROUND, WILL KNOW A WHOLE BUNCH OF WAYS TO FIGURE OUT THE TRUE PROBLEM FOR A LOT LESS.
I AM NOT SURE IF THIS INFO HELPS, BUT MY EXPERIENCES ARE THE ONLY WAY I HAVE!!GOOD LUCK.AND NEVER JUNK IT~IT WILL BE WORTH IT IN THE END!!!MICHAELHTFD



From: cooneytunes
Sent: 10/7/2004 6:22 AM

Jasper Engines are about the biggest, nation wide, any repuable engine repiar shop will have info on them. They have very trustworthy rebuilt engines with a very good warranty. Their cost is also reasonable. Here's their link:
http://jasperengines.com/
But check around locally for a good place first, try some local or regional speed shops. They usually know of someone who is good and maybe out of work who can or need some extra cash. Are you planning on pulling engine out yourself? This will help. If you have the room and the space and a clean place to work on it, and not in a rush, an engine rebuild is not exactly rocket science and can be done by yourself.  Have the heads magnafluxed, and the cylinders rebored and the value guides done at any machine shop, at home you'll just need the right books, manuals, tools, and time. I can be done and then you'll know it's done right. But for a full replacement, basically pop out old, pop in new, I'd go with Jasper.
Timmy



From: cooneytunes
Sent: 10/7/2004 6:38 AM

Also a note to Seahag, Jasper Engines is not out west...They are about 30 miles from me in, Jasper, Indiana. Been to the factory. Anybody passing the area it's well worth a stop and see. There transmissions are also top of the line. They give a full warranty on all engines and transmissions. Price from Jasper for a new ( remanufactured engine for my 76 440-3 ) $3990 with exchange of old engine to them. There engines are complete and like factory new. They have shops all over US.
Timmy



From: salplmb
Sent: 10/31/2006 6:40 AM

hi guys,
been awhile since i posted. well my camping season usually doesent start till the winter here in calif. too much work. anyway on my last trip of about 600 miles, i was thinking to myself how cool it is to be able to just take off in the old home and have her run soo good after 30+ years. well i knew it was burning a little oil. about 1 quart every 500 to 600 miles. as soon as i got to my exit off the freeway the engine started to sound funny. when i stopped at my drive way there was a fairly good ticking sound from the engine. it was 3 quarts low! i checked the the level before we left. i didnt see any smoke so i dont know where it went. can it burn that much? i checked compression on all the cylinders. drivers side was around 115 to 125 psi. the passenger side was down to between 80 and 100 psi. well i decided to pull the heads. i dont really see anything bad when i pull the valve covers. got the heads off and am lookig at the cylinders. now the passenger side looks pretty good to me. there is just a couple of very slight marks on the bore of the cylinders. now on the drivers side one cylinder has what looks like some kind off clouding? on it. and has a couple off marks that are just slightly more than on the passenger side. again to my eyes not too bad. but i'm not a mechanic. so i guess what im asking for is alittle advice on what steps to take next. i was going to have the heads redone because i thought that since i have them off it would make sence? i got both the exhaust manifolds off and also found that on both they were cracked in the middle. the one on the drivers side had actually been broke off the side tab and been welded back on. they had also tried to weld the crack in the middle but it extended past anyway. so should i pull the pistons also? i dont see what would make it tick so loud. would the rings be the problem with the burning oil? i was supposed to go camping again for thanksgivig but i guess thats on hold for now. look forward to any and all advice.
thanks again,
sal



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 10/31/2006 7:18 AM

Sal,

Are you sure the ticking was the engine, or a broken exhaust manifold?
Also heavy ticking could be a lifter or pushrod. the little calcium clouds on the cylinders is typical, the center cylinders usually have this the worst, the rears usually are cleaner and tend to have some oil blow by.

if the exhaust manifold was bad enough, it can reduce the compression you read on the gauge.

take a razor blade and see how much of a ridge is at the top of the cylinder. if the ridge is less than a standard razor blade thickness (.0015) then just hone the block. if the ridge is greater, have it measured for both roundness and size, then you're looking at boring the block and a full up rebuild....

OTher tricks:
fill the chamber area of the heads (off the engine of course!!!) with water, see if the valve seats leak. If they doo, then take the valves out of the heads, and investigate whether the valves or the heds themselves are damaged.

check your cam. A lot of engines run poorly because the cam lobes ar worn.
How? measure the movement of each lifter in the lifter seats. the exhaust and intake "lift" should be identical on each intake and exhaust lifter (lobe) The duration of the cam can't change unless the lobe is wiped, so it's a pretty good call just looking for uneven lift (lift is usually the same for intake and exhaust lobes, but the duration is different)...

Ok there's about 100 more tricks.... but you've probably heard of most of them already.....

Tom



From: denisondc
Sent: 10/31/2006 7:26 AM

A ticking sound that keeps time with engine speed, but otherwise doesnt change when accelerating or coasting is probably a bent pushrod or a sticking lifter. If the ticking noise changes its quality with the throttle being opened or being closed, it could be piston slap. A crank bearing can be worn enough to make noise when the oil is hot - but that rarely happens more suddenly than after hundreds or thousands of miles. And bearing noise is more of a low clunking instead of a hard tick or tap sound. If you ran it low on oil, I would suspect a lifter that had air in it, and wasnt re-filling to do its job. I would bet that some of your pushrods are slightly bent - roll them along a table top to see.
Definitely have the heads looked at while they are loose; a valve job, and new valve stem seals, new core plugs. And put in new exhaust studs too.
The clouding you talk about on the cylinder; I guess you mean a lack of glaze on the cylinder wall? This can result from the engine sitting with water in that cylinder. The water might have damaged the piston rings - and a stuck or broken oil control ring would increase oil consumption for sure. My engine started out getting poor oil mileage, because it had been sitting idle for 4 years. But after a couple of years of use it got back up to 500 miles to a quart, and is now about 800 miles to a quart. (Its been getting slowly better!) 500 miles to a quart on a big v8 isnt considered bad at all.
My engine has 103,000 miles on it. It had low compression on 2 cylinders when we got it, (below 60) and will measure low compression on those cylinders if it has been sitting for months. If I measure it after it has been run recently though, I get about 85 to 90 on 2 cylinders, and over 100 on all the others. The 413 has a compression ratio of only about 8 to 1, the 440 is a little higher.
There would likely be a sharp noise from a cracked exhaust manifold - due to the exhaust gases popping out of the crack. This noise would not result from all 4 cylinders on that side of the engine though - mostly the cylinder closest to the crack.
How clean were the 8 spark plugs? If it was burning oil due to broken/rusted piston rings, it would make a plug darker, or foul it. It could have been smoking enough to be noticeable to anyone watching the tail-pipe, and you might not have seen it from the drivers seat. I think it could also dump a lot of oil if you had a leak from the oil-presser sender, or one of the galleries at the back of the engine. This would have bathed the back of the engine and the bottom of the bell housing with oil though.
I think in your position I would drop the pan, and remove the piston that had the clouding on the glaze. If its rings were okay, I might conclude the others were good too. Maybe do the piston that had the lowest compression - though low compression is just as often leaky valves or stuck lifters.
I had the pan off of mine at 95,000 miles, and though the bearings were good - I put in new ones anyway. You will need to ream off the ridge at the top of that cylinder in order to get the piston out without the risk of ruining its compression rings.
Some minor vertical stratches are normal on the cylinder walls of older engines - from carbon grit that fell into the cylinder and took a while to get worn away. They dont seem to affect compression or oil consumption much. Heavier vertical stratches result from the ends of cracked pistong rings.
Just looking in the bottom of the engine oil pan can be informative; on the Ford flathead V8s you could see short pieces of the oil control riings lying there! On a normal engine!



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 11/1/2006 9:07 AM

On the Ark, I get a "ticking" noise when I accelerate as well, especially up hills when the engine is laboring the most.  For a while, I thought it might be the engine, but have isolated the noise to the exhaust manifold on the driver's side.  It was REALLY bad before I replaced the head pipe gasket on that side, which had a broken stud.  I replaced the studs and the gasket, and the noise is minimal, but still there.  The only thing it can be now is the manifolds (maybe a crack) or the manifold gaskets.  Its pretty far down on my priority list, but eventually I'll have to address and replace all of my exhaust components.  Perhaps this is your problem as well?

Kev



From: salplmb
Sent: 11/2/2006 6:34 AM

thanks for the replies guys,
when i cleaned up the heads alittle with the preasre washer i noticed that when i shoot water into the middle intake ports on both heads that some water was leaking through the valves. when i look at the springs and valves the middle two intake ports look kind of burned? other springs still have a green tinge to them like they were when new but the middle ones look really black. is this kind of normal becauce the ports are so close together? it would seem to me that these are the intakes and would not even get so hot? i don't think it was a exhaust that was ticking. how would i know if one of the lifters was stickig? i can move all the lifters on the cam. i will try to check out the cam. not sure on the procedure to check on the lifter hight? i assume you just turn the engine by hand till the lobe is pointing stright on the lifter and mark the hight? then all of them should be the same, right? checked the push rods. they all seem nice and straight. before i  removed the the heads i checked to see if there was any play between the rockers and the valve springs. a couple were slightly loose. is this normal? called a couple of machine shops to check on prices to rebuild. between $600.00 and $700.00. all new valves, seats, guides. anything special i should have done? lastly i have looked on ebay for the exhaust manifolds. i find them from $60.00 to $160.00 all exactaly the same discription. what should i ask about these. they are all aftermarket. has anybody tried any of these and are they o.k?
thanks for all the help.
sal



From: denisondc
Sent: 11/2/2006 10:21 AM

About play between rockers and valve stems; with the engine stopped, there will always be some valves that are being held open by the cam lobes, others where the cam lobe has barely pushed the valve off of its seat, and some where the cam lobe is not pushing the lifter up at all. For all of these latter, you would likely feel a little play between the rocker and the end of the valve if you grab it with your fingers. I think the little spring inside the lifter should push up on the pushrod just enough so there isnt any space between the rocker and the end of the vavle - but your fingers would be strong enough to overcome this. If the engine sits long enough, all of the lifters will bleed down to the lowest postion, and not more than 2 or 3 valves will be open, and those not all the way. These are the valve faces that are likely to have some rust on them.
I dont know why the two adjoining valve springs would have gotten any hotter than the others. Maybe they look different between they have been replaced?
The $60 exhaust manifolds were probably used? Or owned by some private individual that just wants to get them out of his workshop. The $160 sounds like a new price from a business. I would think a manifold was a manifold, but some discount priced units might not have the studs installed to support the exahust pipe.
The only way I know to isolate a sticking lifter is either by seeing a fouled plug and low compression, or by removing them and doinga bleed down test. I had some sticking on a Chevy six, but just dismantled all of them and cleaned out the muck - then they worked when re-installed.
Considering how hard it is to remove/replace heads, getting them rebuilt for $600/$700 sounds worthwhile to me.
When you re-install the manifolds, I personally would 'defeat' the heat riser vavle, and fix it in the 'hot' position. This function is mostly needed in cold weather, befor the engine is fully warmed. It helps the fuel vaporize in the intake manifold. This usually isnt a problem with a motor home.



From: bluebird5750
Sent: 11/2/2006 3:23 PM

Most of the time, if an engine is using oil, and you do just a valve job, they will use more oil. More compression, old rings = more oil used. That oil went somewhere, and if it didn't leak, it went out the tail pipes. I'd rebuild it and be done with it. These old rigs always need somthing, but if it's drivetrain related, it'll cost a LARGE fortune to get it repaired away from home. Probably why some older rigs just get left behind.



From: salplmb
Sent: 11/16/2006 6:24 AM

well,
i got the heads down to the machine shop and he tells me that the springs and valves are shot. also when magna fluxed he said there was some small crakes around the middle two exhaust valves on both heads. i thought the springs on those ports were burned up. i was wondering what would cause this? this is also where the cracks on the exhaust manifolds were, right in the middle. well he said they can weld them up and fix it. total new everyting $500.00. very nice guy that i have known of for many years. he said the older heads are thicker and repairable. was wondering what you guys thought? repair or replace?
thanks again,
sal



From: denisondc
Sent: 11/16/2006 5:30 PM

I would probably keep the old heads and get them redone - if the cost would be less than a rebuilt pair. As for the valves and springs being 'shot' - new ones shouldnt be that expensive, so definitely replace them while the heads are off. I imagine you could reuse most of the original springs and valves; but after 30 years the springs will have sagged somewhat, and the valves have already lasted long enough to justify replacement. Your engine would have double valve springs, right?
I dont understand about the small cracks near the middle two exhaust valves on both heads. Is it possible this is an area where such minor cracking is normal?



From: bluebird5750
Sent: 11/16/2006 5:59 PM

Don't know about chrysler, but chevy and ford heads crack around the exhaust valves seats is pretty common. We used to have a cyclinder head shop about 60 miles from us that used to offer the welding repair. They did all kinds of cyclinder heads. Might want to ask about the valve seats. Do they have hardened seats to be able to run unleaded fuel?  If I remember right chrysler was one of  the first companys  to advertise unleaded fuel use. Chances are, if you buy some used ones they may be cracked also. If you do buy a set of used heads make sure you state they MUST be crack free and rebuildable.
Chuck.