Leaking Head gasket repair?

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: nvdesertrat0775  (Original Message)
Sent: 5/23/2005 8:39 PM

I thought it was time to branch this out on it's own, away from the "40 mph uphill?" thread where it began.
  The situation is, my 73 Brave is leaking antifreeze into the oil, and during the discussion a possible 'easy fix' was discovered, and this thread is all about whether or not this potential cure for a leaking head gasket is the real McCoy.
  The product is called Thermogasket, and I found it here: www.rxauto.com  It costs a little over $100.00, and comes in two bottles, not including the radiator flush they include.
  To date, I have flushed out the radiator [using the Quick Flush kit Herb mentioned], after hand-flushing it several times.  I've checked the amount of antifreeze & water getting into the oil, and it isn't really a lot. I did this by draining the oil and then pouring it into a plastic bottle to sit overnight. The first time, there was two inches of green under about three quarts of oil.  At first this seemed like an awful lot, until I calmed down and realized I didn't know how long it had taken to accumulate.
  After running the RV for about half an hour, I checked it again and found about a quarter-inch of green under the two quarts or so of oil.  That didn't seem so bad.
  The general consensus had been that I most likely had a leaking head gasket, rather than the cracked block I first suspected.  So this thread is about repairing that leaking gasket-- [and hoping that's all it is]
   After draining the radiator, [then closing the petcock] I put the radiator flush in, filled it the rest of the way with water, turned the heater on full bore, and went for a drive.  The instructions say to drive it for 3 to 6 hours before draining, so tonight I'll take another drive and tomorrow I'll drain it, flush it again, and put the Thermogasket in. The instructions say to mix the two bottles together, fill the radiator will clean water, leaving room for the thermo mix.
  Instruction #5 says: "If vehicle is steaming excessively bring RPM's up to approx. 3000  and hold steady until steam stops...."  Apparently, this stuff isn't for the faint of heart.
  I'll have to leave it in the RV for at least 400 miles before flushing.  I hope the leak will have stopped by then...  There's a clean-up party on the Black Rock desert next weekend...110 miles one way... maybe I'll go.
  Otherwise...I guess there's not much to add here until we know if it works or not.  I WILL post that, either way.

Rat



From: wendell
Sent: 5/24/2005 12:03 PM

One of the best ways to determine if you have a blown head gasket is to watch the radiator overflow bottle while the engine runs after it comes up to normal operating temp.  If your head gasket is leaking, you will usually see bubbles in the overflow bottle caused by the engine forcing air/exhasust, etc. into the cooling passages. Pressure then builds up in the cooling system and comes out the overflow tube when it exceeds the radiator cap capacity.

If you don't see bubbles, you probably don't have a blown head gasket, more likely its a cracked head which will let the coolant flow directly into the oiling system and into the crankcase.  Blocks are pretty tough to crack unless you have let the engine freeze or something.  A cracked head would be much more common.  It sounds like the engine is still running all right, so I would bet you have a leaking head gasket.  The noise you heard could have just been something you ran over (or if you were in my rig, something that fell off)

I wouldn't waste time with the sealers, etc.  They won't provide a real solution to your problem.  If you pull the heads, by all means take them to a machine shop and get them reconditioned with new valve seals, etc. and have them magnafluxed, even if you discover that your problem is just a head gasket (which I suspect).  You are looking at a lot of work to pull the heads, but fortunately, these old beasts can be rebuilt pretty reliably.  Better to only do it once.

Good luck and keep us posted.



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/24/2005 1:46 PM

Wendel.. thanks for the post.  I wasn't aware of the bubbles test, and I'll give it a try next time.
It's obvious you read at least part of the original thread, but I'm not sure you read it all. {Not that I blame you...it's a 100 posts long!], but I'm trying this 'thermogasket' mostly to satisfy my curiousity and to point people either toward or away from the product, depending on results. 
  If it doesn't measure up, be assured I will follow more conventional repair methods, up to and including replacing the entire block.  First, of course, I'll make sure exactly what the damage is, and act from there.  Right now I simply don't have time to do any engine dismantling, so I'm testing out this 'cleaner' method. {It's hard to do a lot of things, with your hands and clothes covered with grease & oil.}  Also, we're getting some strong afternoon winds here, and having a partially dismantled block would mean either stopping to completely cover it every time I had to leave it for a bit, or risking foreign material getting blown into it.  It would be a real pain to cover and uncover it, every time I found fifteen minutes I could work on it.  I'll have more free time soon, and then I'll do whatever I have to do with it.
  Your suggestions are correct and appreciated, but... this one time... I'll go with what I can do right now, and save the rebuild for another time.
  And think how helpful it might be to fellow RVers, if the Thermogasket actually works!  If it doesn't, most likely I'll lose nothing but a few dollars, since I'd still have to do whatever needs doing - - - fixing heads, or replacing a cracked block.  Testing the chemical fix won't change anything, unless it works.  {I, too, doubt it's a cracked block.. but I'll know before I try to fix it any other way...}
  Yes, I'll certainly post the results here, but it says to leave the mixture in the radiator for at least 400 miles, so it might be awhile before I have anything to add.
Thanks again for posting!

Rat



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/24/2005 4:39 PM

Actually,you will know right away if the fix works or not.If it does work,then go the Subaru route and use the sealer they are using in thier cars.If Subaru of America says it  works,and its a fix recommended by their engineers,I think its worth looking at.

BooBoo



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/24/2005 4:41 PM

Subaru sealer after the 400 miles.Thats what I would do if your sealer works.

BooBoo



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/24/2005 9:08 PM

Oh, Boo... what a great but flawed communication device these computers are!  When you mentioned Subaru's use of the sealer, I thought you were doing it in the sense of "See? If a big company like Subaru can rely on a sealer, why couldn't we?"  and I didn't think any more about it other than that.
  If 'their' sealer can be of use --assuming this works --certainly I'll include it in the final routine!  And thanks for pointing it out 

Rat



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/26/2005 10:10 PM

Well, the fat's in the fire.  I put the mixture in today, [didn't see any steam out the exhaust pipe] and then drove the required 5-10 miles.  Actually more like 15.  I just parked it.  Didn't notice any change in the driving, but that's probably a good thing.
  Tomorrow I'll drain and replace the oil & filter, and even the spark plugs as recommended.  Then after some driving--maybe 50 miles or so - I'll pull the drain plug and see if any water comes out.

Rat



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/27/2005 12:10 AM

WooHoo.
The answer is coming.We are anxious to  hear the results.

BooBoo



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/27/2005 2:41 AM

UH-oh.  Now I'm getting concerned. I just drained the oil, and... it filled TWO gallon jars, with some left over!  It's only supposed to hold five quarts, maybe five and a half including the filter.  That's got to be mostly water, and it's seems to be a lot more than it was before.
   When I drained the oil I let it run for about half an hour while I did other things.  When I crawled under to put the drain plug back in, several drops of water came out. I thought  it might've been 'left over', but now I'm not at all sure.
  I just put oil in, so without even starting it I'll loosen the drain plug tomorrow and see what runs out.  I fear it will be water.

It doesn't look good, guys...  I can't imagine anything good that would put an extra gallon of water into the oil.  *SIGH*

Rat



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/27/2005 3:53 AM

After some thought, I realize the only thing I did that wasn't exactly per their instructions was to use the backflush kit.  Is it possible it was too much pressure on an already damaged gasket?  If that's a possibility, then my experiment here was a complete waste of time, since we still don't know if the thermogasket does or doesn't work.
  But... who knows?  Maybe when I check the oil in the morning, it won't be half water --{Don't think I'll hold my breath, though}. I suspect it's about time to break out the toolbox.
  Oh, owning an RV is SUCH fun...



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/27/2005 10:59 AM

Oh, man... as if I'm not confused and befuddled enough ordinarily, this morning I'm totally confused.
  One of the gallon jars has no water separation at all; the other has about half an inch of water in the bottom.  But the oil is very thin and runny...perhaps from the thermogasket mix?  Except the mix was added in thru the rad.
  On the other hand, we still don't know if the seal worked or not.  I checked the jars first thing this morning and haven't pulled the oil drain to see if there's water in it or not.  If 'not' then I still have to run it and see.  Think I'll do that sitting in the drive...
  Anyway, I wanted to update anyone who might be following this wierd tale.  When I find out about the oil etc today, I'll post it.

Rat



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 5/27/2005 11:57 AM

Oh, believe me, we are all following this weird thread!  This is more of a mysterious sags than "Sob's Follies".  At least in those tales, all the problems had one very explainable source:  my blown headgasket!  - Sob



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 5/27/2005 12:00 PM

.... mysterious "saga" that is.  Duh!



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/27/2005 12:28 PM

And a promising beginning...  when I drained half a quart of oil from the pan, it came out rich and golden!  No water, no antifreeze!  But I'm not enumerating the egg-laying population until they get clear of the birth-chamber.... I still have to let it run for ten or fifteen minutes.  But now at least it's looking hopeful! Who needs to go to an amusement park to get a roller-coaster ride...we have Winnies!

OOPS.. company.  Gotta run

Rat



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/27/2005 3:33 PM

Hmmm... this thread needs a little suspense.

I drained half a quart of oil, let it sit for about two hours, held it up to the light, and...
}to be concluded...}


NUTTIN' BUT OIL!!

I will do as instructed and replace the spark plugs [and shorten the wires, per my own preference, to more neatly route them], and take her out for a longer run.  Then I'll drain a more substantial amount and see.  But... oh, it's hard not to yell Whoopee!
{Even though getting two gallons+ oil where there should be only one is still a bit of a headscratcher...}

Da{Grinning}Rat



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/27/2005 4:59 PM

That thin oil  may be GAS!
Fuel pumps are known to  develope leaks and do just that.

BooBoo



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 5/27/2005 5:24 PM

Rat, if she's starting to manufacture her own oil, I'll be first in line to get some of that stuff!



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/27/2005 5:24 PM

I don't doubt it, Boo.  But the oil I drained this morning was thick as ever.  I suspect it was the thermogasket material that thinned it, since the instructions DID say to drain the oil.
  And I noticed my two tune-ups [not sure which one did it, but probably the $565.00 one] installed plug wires that are almost two feet too long, on several plugs. They loop around and rest against the exhaust manifold and generally look like..., well, you know what they look like.  Are there any precut plug wires that fit this 318?  I called the local dodge dealer and the lady said they don't carry anything that would fit.  Guess I could get a crimper and just snip off the long ones.  I figured I would replace the plugs -as called for in the instructions - and do the wires at the same time.
   As soon as I can get away for a couple of hours I'll take another test drive and recheck the oil.

Rat



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/27/2005 7:12 PM

I got some autolite premiums for the 440 at autozone,but now they dont carry em.Think around 50 bucks?Cant remember,a little on the pricey side was my thought when I got em..What I like about them was the quality of the metal snap ons in the boot,very thick,they wont  bend when you squeeze em.Stay real tight when hot.
Wish I could find another source for them.
Very nice wires.
You could go with premium  racing wires like SOB did.He said they were overkill actually,but nothing beats being over qualified for the application,eh SOB?
Bet you actually love those puppies eh?

Cant  wait for the final  news after a serious bit of mileage.

BooBoo



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/27/2005 8:54 PM

I went to NAPA, and got OEM wire set for a total of $31.78.  It's a good fit.  The longest wire in the old set was an unreal 56 inches long, with the others preportional.  While I was there I picked up a 25 ft roll of 5/16 fuel line [NOT fuel injected] to replace most if not all of the old lines.
  I think I'll take off all but one fuel filter... both tanks have a filter within six inches of the tanks, and another about a foot from the carb, right after the elect fuel pump. Is there any advantage to have an extra filter on each line, and does it put extra work onto the pump? I may see if the original fuel pump still works.  It's still in place, with a horseshoe length of fuel line from inlet to outlet.
  If it wasn't pouring rain right now, I'd be out on the road with her, but I think I'll wait for the sun to return, tomorrow.
  Yeah... I'm kinda itchy to find out, too.

Rat



From: denison
Sent: 5/28/2005 1:04 PM

I wish you luck with the sealer. I remember being surprised and a little disgusted to learn that most all auto manufacturers apparently put a cooling system sealer/stop leak into their new cars; otherwise about 5% of them would leak.
If you backflushed with water from a hose, that pressure would not have been enough to cause a leak; unless their already was a bad gasket. I havent heard of water supply systems being over 150 psi max, and that pressure would not hurt the headgasket water jacket sealing. Wouldnt be good for the radiator and hoses though.
I wonder if your intake manifold has water going through it, and could it be leaking from the joint to the head, and running into the camshaft valley,then down into the pan?
I had to retorque the intake manifold bolts on my chevy 350 due to a coolant leak. Half of the bolts were barely tight.



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 5/28/2005 6:42 PM

"Those puppies" are really nice, BooBoo.  VERY low ohm resistance (but don't interfere with the radio), excellent insulation on the wires and the boots.  The boots are easy to grasp, have a really solid "snap" lock on the plugs and can be angled to fit as you like for best wire clearance and routing.  I am happy with the investment. -



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/28/2005 11:00 PM

{Drum roll in background, off-stage}

"Ladies and Gentlemen: We have just received this telegram from Rat mobile Headquarters, somewhere in Nevada... I quote:
'Ain't nuttin' there but pure oil!'"
"Say, Vince...could you paraphrase that for us, in case anyone missed it?"
"I'd Be happy to, Howard.  It seems the Ratmobile is no longer leaking water, antifreeze, or any other unwanted liquid into the oil."
"Say, that IS good news, Vince!  Any word or conjecture on how long this great condition is expected to endue?"
"Well, Howard, we all know how these RV's are.. especially the older, classic models, so I doubt anyone is betting their Golden Parachute on an extended longevity, but we can only keep our fingers crossed."
"Right you are, Vince! Now, back to watching Anna Korna...I mean, let's go back to tennis, shall we?"

[Drum roll fades, as the entire band goes back to watch Anna serve]

p.s.  It looks like it's fixed!  Not a drop of anything but oil came out!!  NOW it's time for:  Whoopee!!
Thanks for all the help...really!



From: W0X0F
Sent: 5/28/2005 11:37 PM

Congrats Rat,

Be watchful for a while, and let us know how things go! I'm especially interested in the report after a long run when the temps are in their normal summer range 100°-115°. Again thanks for being the guinea pig.

Herb



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/29/2005 1:47 AM

I will certainly do both... keep and eye on it and post the condition of the oil after some time & distance have gone by.
  To tell the truth, when I saw over two gallons of oil come out, I thought sure something had burst inside and the whole game was over.  While I was waiting for the oil to settle in the jar so I could check the water level, I dug out the estimates for the various repairs, wondering if I shouldn't rebuild the entire engine and get it over with.
  I also thought how most guinea pigs don't survive their attempt to help, lol. {The thought also crossed my mind, if I was going to make an idiot of myself by trying this "fix", why didn't I do it nice and quiet-like, instead of -duh! - POSTING it!} 
  Can you imagine how it would feel, if I had to come back in a short time and say it had started leaking again?? nonononono..

Thanks for the post!

Rat



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 5/29/2005 8:34 AM

Super!  Let's hope it sticks for a good, long time.  Don't even be  about posting everything along the way.  What would any one of the rest of us have done, eh? 

For the most part, we're back yard mechanics, riding a long-term learning curve of trial and error, trying what the more knowledgeable tell us according to our descriptions and passing along what we learn from the experiences.

Each of us have our own specialties; your's may be solar, another may be 4x4 conversions, and mine might be devising new ways to destroy my rig and myself in the process.  That's what makes us so valuable to each other and keeps our rigs from the metal cruncher.

The finale was excellent!  This is better than "The Late Show"!

- Sob



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 5/29/2005 1:03 PM

Sob has it right.  Each of us has his/her own "specialty."  Mine is spending the rest of my life looking for the inside lockset plate without having to buy the entire lockset.  It's a full-time job, too.



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/29/2005 1:53 PM

So how far have you driven it yet?Have you brought it up  to full pressure/temp yet?
Really starting to sound promising.
S now you leave it in for 400 miles did you say?

BooBoo



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/29/2005 1:58 PM

Better call your neighbor Art Bell.

Nobody is going to believe it.

Just throw in something like "This Alien shadow person  from the Yosemite Cauldron and I were discussing this abduction while making crop circles when my hyperdrive sprung  a leak,and he told me about this Binford 5800 super sealer......"

BooBoo



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/29/2005 6:28 PM

Why..... how did you know, Boo-Boo??  I was sworn to secrecy, but I see there's not much point to it now.  Obviously, the story about running into another Winnie Owner at Wal-mart {As if THAT'S ever gonna happen, lol} was seen right thru!  I TOLD the little guy no one would believe it, but you know how the Greys are...

I didn't keep track of the mileage, since I was planning on going to a close city [Fernley; 29 miles one way], but the wind picked up and I turned around before I got there. {I still need to take that little bit of 'wander' out of the steering, and it doesn't like wind much}.  It didn't have any trouble keeping up with traffic, and if not for the wind slowing ME down, could've passed much of it up.
  But, yeah, it was well into operating range, for quite some time, certainly long enough for water to leak if it was going to.  I just double-checked the gallon jar with the oil I drained, and it's still w/o any sign of water.  Hard to believe..., but it seems to have worked perfectly! 

Yes, it stays in at least 400 miles.  I was planning a trip this weekend [right now I should be on the playa!] but duty arose and handcuffed me here for a few days... so I'm not sure when I'll get to add to the total miles.  Besides... I have a new project already!  I found a 66 Aristocrat, 12', with the original range in perfect working order, and a auto-defrost Dometic refridge..110 and LP... also in perfect working order, and the original LP interior lamp, with the original half-cloudy, half-clear glass shade, that also works perfectly.  The body is in decent condition except for the 'tin' rear bumper, where the PO backed into something. {As thin as it is, he might have backed into tall weeds and dented it}  They wanted $600.00 but took $500.00.  It's in so much better condition than the one I was restoring for my Brother, I'm going to switch and let him use THIS one.  Can you believe it has three beds!?  And it still has the 'prime the pump' faucet, with a twenty gallon fresh water tank. [Haven't tried the pump, yet...]  It drains onto the ground, but I can fix that, maybe with the blue rolling tote.
  Anyway... that's OT, lol. But I wanted to say I would be parting out the 57 Mercury, and wondering if it might have some parts anyone would want?  I'll start a different thread about it, in a little. 

I'll keep the latest news posted here, until it's not news anymore, then I'll stop.  I really do appreciate all the support for this weird thread!

Rat
  I did replace the plug wires & plugs before I ventured out.



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/29/2005 8:18 PM

That is just toooooooo AWESOME!

Trailer sounds pretty nice too!

BooBoo!



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 5/29/2005 9:27 PM

I tried the pump, but didn't have enough water in the tank [I think].  It created pressure, but didn't draw any water.  But my drive slopes and I think the supply line out of the tank was above the waterline inside the tank.
  I'll post a few pics of the trailer, when I start the other thread about salvage parts...probably tomorrow.
  yeah, Boo-Boo... I agree.  I've ALWAYS thought it was awesome that Fernley was 29 miles, one way. {That IS what you were referring, too...right?}



From: wendell
Sent: 5/31/2005 11:20 AM

Rat,

I'm glad the sealer is holding--that's terrific!  Thanks for keeping us all updated.  It's been fun watching over your shoulder. 

WG



From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 9/16/2005 11:57 AM

Thought it was time to add the [maybe] final word here...
  Just got back from Black Rock desert- roundtrip of about 230 miles- in our usual Nevada heat, and the radiator is still holding all it's water.  Nothing in the oil at all!  So I guess the final verdict is, this stuff DOES do what it's supposed to do.  For those who don't remember, the product is called "Thermogasket", and I've had it in the RV for about six months now.  There's a link 'way back in the first post here to the supplier, if anyone needs it.
  I think I'm supposed to drain it out now.  I'll check to be sure before I do anything.  I need to renew the antifreeze and go to a single-weight oil before winter anyway...

Thanks for following this somewhat [ahem!] extended post.

Rat



From: thebluesliner
Sent: 9/23/2006 8:33 AM

Hi Folks,
I think I may have this problem only in a bad way. I was driving and just thinking to myself that this ole' thing is sure working great then she quit and the rear end looked like she was on fire. I got out to look at what was going on and the white smoke had disipated that quickly. It's hard to see on the dipstick if there is an overage of oil in the pan but it sorta smells like antifreeze. I'll have to do the compression test and cooling system pressure test just to figure out just what I've got but I think it's a head gasket gone.
Has anyone fixed this without pulling the engine. She is a 318-3 / 1973 D-20?
Should I get the hardened valve seats installed or get 360 heads?
Anything else you could suggest will be appretiated as well.
Greg Siddall
thebluesliner@hotmail.com



From: denisondc
Sent: 9/24/2006 11:37 AM

I will be interested in your compression test results, and the cooling system pressure test results. Does a 318 have a water heated intake manifold; i.e. is there water flowing through that intake manifold, and could that be where you water is getting into the intake stream? The 413s were that way, but I dont think the 440s were.
I would get the heads rebuilt, not change to 360 heads - unless there were 360-3 haed, and fully compatible. That would mean taking the same exhaust manifolds. As for the hardened valve seats, the 318-3 might have had induction hardened valve seating already. Unless you plan to put more than 75k more miles on the engine, I woujld think the original valve and seat type would be fine. After all, the engine has lasted 33 years, so how bad can the design be?
Im sure you can pull the heads with the engine in place, and have the benefit of being in the shade, out of the rain, etc. Thats assuming its really necessary. Its going to be hard on the back, all that bending over though. Id be inclinded to drop the pan, and at least replace the main and rod bearings, and put in a new rear seal.



From: thebluesliner
Sent: 9/24/2006 7:40 PM

Thanks denisondc,

You got me interested in just what is going on there. All I know is the motor actually shut itself down, I looked in the mirrors and thought she was on fire. There was alot of white smoke but it was gone by the time I got out and looked around. The motor will not start now and the starter motor doesn't really turn her over like it has all along either. Thanks for the info and suggestions and I will post the compression and cooling tests.

Greg Siddall
thebluesliner@hotmail.com



From: poppinjohnnies
Sent: 9/24/2006 9:23 PM

OK, I have to throw in my opinion based on "good ol' gettin' your knuckles bloody" experience. A coolant leak that ends up in the oil pan MUST be repaired by replacing gaskets or repairing or replacing cracked or failed parts. No "witches brew" additive will ever hold back a head gasket leak. Not permanently, anyway. Sometimes an intake manifold gasket will leak coolant into the valley, causing the same problems, and it may be temporarily repaired with sealer,but I would never trust it on a long trip. If it is in fact a head gasket leak, save yourself some grief and pull the head.