440-3 Water Pump. How can you tell if it's the right one?

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: SmallDiscoveries1  (Original Message)
Sent: 10/15/2005 1:09 PM

While the radiator is out of the 74 Indian, I thought it might be a good idea to just go ahead and replace the waterpump. Well, that's not going to happen. We located one with a lifetime warranty and my dad went and picked it up. There were 3 main differences between the new waterpump and the old one. I was afraid this would happen.

1) The original water pump housing is made of aluminum, the new is cast iron?
2) The original water pump impeller is made of stainless steel, the new is pot metal.
3) The vains on the original water pump impeller turn one direction, the new turns the opposite.

Something to keep in mind when you go to replace your waterpump.

I think my dad waisted time on this task. The bearings seem tight, it doesn't leak. I guess I should have taken to heart the old adage "If it aint broke, don't fix it." For once I was trying to be proactive in the maintenance department. I could still send it off and get it rebuilt for $65. At this point I don't think I will though.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?



From: denison
Sent: 10/15/2005 6:27 PM

I don’t know what to conclude.
I don’t think of water pumps commonly lasting 31 years reliably, so your Winny might already have a replacement pump. As far as I know the 440-3 came with an iron water pump, with an iron impeller having 8 to 10 vanes, but my engine is a 413-1, not a 440-3. Perhaps someone who has had his 440-3 water pump out can confirm or refute. I doubt an aluminum housing versus an iron water pump body housing would be any advantage.
As for the impeller being a casting instead of stainless steel, the usual death for a water pump is a leaking seal or bearings going bad â€" but I have never had an impeller go bad. The vanes on the water pump in my engine are angled so that a marble dropped in between them would be flung out by the action of rotation, but it is a very slight angle. On the other hand, the water pumps for my mopar front engine family cars have straight vanes. These pumps turn in one direction on the cars with a V-belt, and the opposite direction on the cars with a serpentine belt.
Do you know how long that pump has been in there, or how much of its useful life remains?
I think that old adage about not fixing it if it isnt broken is equivalent to saying: “I will get it fixed after it quits on me.”



From: SmallDiscoveries1
Sent: 10/16/2005 1:09 AM

Well crap a rabbit. Now what to do? How would I know what is correct? The thing was overheating but I thought it was because of the radiator. The pump was not leaking. From what I have read, the 440-3 waterpump is different than the 440-1.

I'm stumped.

If the pump that is on there is not correct, and in fact has the veins go in the wrong direction, then perhaps the pump my dad picked up is correct. How can I find out what is right? It could explain the overheating.



From: denison
Sent: 10/16/2005 2:11 PM

Viewed from in front of the vehicle, our engines turn clockwise, the water pump and alternator turning in the same direction. The water pump impeller vanes “throw” the water toward the outside of the impeller as they turn. The vanes on the alternator also ‘throw’ air out of the front of the unit. So, if the vanes on the water pump angle, they should angle in the same direction as do the fins on the alternator. Of course when you are looking at the water pump impeller, you will be looking from the back side, and the vanes would angle the other way as seen from that direction.
An incorrect thermostat can compromise cooling too. The type of thermostat I think your engine should have is pictured on the opening page of: www.stewartcomponents.com. You can do a product search for the stewart part numbers of: 304, 305, 306 which also shows illustrations. Or, search for product # MRG-4367 at www.summitracing.com. I am using a 160 degree in my winny, but would change to a 180 for most driving. Its just that nearly all of my driving is done in the American south, in the summertime. Running too cool is not a problem, but it might be in the central/northern U.S. in the winter.
You can see some water pumps on ebay that are for mopar rear wheel drive V8s. Ebay # 8007201570 shows front and back views of a ‘440’ water pump with straight vanes. Ebay item # 8007127129 shows the angled vanes, angled in which I believe to be the proper direction. But that water pump looks like a toy compared with the one on my mopar big block 413. And mine has 5 bolts holding the pump into the housing, which is what I thought the motorhome 440-3 engines had.



From: SmallDiscoveries1
Sent: 10/17/2005 3:40 PM

Denison,

Thank you. Mine is the first one. I saw it today for the first time. My dad has been working on it for me. I believe it has been replaced. The "Japan" casting gives me a clue. Would Dodge have used Japanese parts in 1973? I'm still not sure what to do, but I better do something quick because the radiator is done.

I think my dad was mistaken on the aluminum and stainless though. The housing seems to be cast pot metal or whatever it is as in the orange painted waterpump. The impeller just seems to be formed steel.

Steve



From: denison
Sent: 10/17/2005 5:15 PM

In 1973 Dodge water pumps probably had the 5 sided pentagonal symbol meaning "mopar". I have never seen any indication that Dodge/Chrylser was allowing Japanese parts into their vehicles, or at least disquising the fact very well.



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 10/17/2005 8:26 PM

If you haven't followed my thread on cooling, then here is a quick summary for you:

When I bought my rig, it was running cool, but I bought it in the winter, so I wasn't sure.

When it got hot, and I was running it in the mountains and on long highway treks, it would get VERY hot...at least, the guage was saying it was very hot, although it was still running the same.

Erring on the side of caution, at first I replaced the waterpump (using the Chrysler part numbers, I was lucky enough to find an EXACT replacement at NAPA), the thermostat with a 160 skirted thermostat (the second...long story)...and all the belts.

It was still running hot, according to the guage...off the scale.

I flushed and changed the fluid.

Still  very hot, according the guage.

THEN, in a final act of desperation, I had the raditor recored, ungraded from 3 rows to 4 rows, at a cost of about 600 bucks.

The guage STILL ran hot!!!

It was only after doing all this I suspected the guage!

I intalled a manual guage...the water pump housing has many plugs in which to install a guage, and I put one in (the 440 probably has a different housing, but I'm sure there is SOME place to put in a manual "NAPA" or other style guage).

Guess what?

On the longest highway trips, up the highest mountains and through the highest temps, even in traffic, the MANUAL guage never reads higher than 190...with an average of 180...very good temps.

Moral of the story?

Even though it IS good to replace every system on our old rigs, because they will eventually fail over the years (time is inevitable), before you get into the 4 digits like I did, REPLACE THE GUAGES, or add mechanical ones!

Any replacement you do, or upgrade, is NOT a waste of money, but by starting with the obvious, like guages, you can curtail your expenses and budget them to when you HAVE the cash...and still use the Winnie.

Kev



From: brakeparts
Sent: 10/18/2005 2:20 AM

Steve -

You may be interested to know that I offer a high volume pump specifically made for this engine and application which provides 20% higher flow volume than the stock OE pump. It is manufactured by Airtex Products and has a cast iron housing with a stamped steel impeller. Airtex engineers and manufactures all their own componentry, BTW.

Please contact me at the warehouse days if you are interested in this pump as it is a natural upgrade for any 440-3 motorhome application.

Yours,

Geoff Rosenberg
Alretta Truck Parts Inc.
508-788-9409
brakeparts@mac.com



From: denison
Sent: 10/22/2005 5:27 AM

Myself, I would probably order one from Geoff Rosenberg, to be sure I had a proper pump. Then you could forget about the water pump for a decade until the next time the radiator needs cleaned.