Engine cranks won't start. Possibly fuel pump?

[MSN Member]

From: chris0876  (Original Message)
Sent: 1/6/2006 6:34 PM

I've been having trouble with my 73 brave bago starting, it turns over and over, wanting to start, but it just doesnt. so I figure, maybe the furl filter is clogged....I check that, sure enough, I could rattle it and use it as a marraca....so I put a new one on. still the same old problem.

so I head on down to napa auto parts and order me a fuel pump, for a 73' dodge 440. now here's where it gets kind of trickey.....

1.on the old fuel pump, when I pulled it out, the "arm" or whatever the thing that sticks out from the inside was very long.  on my new fuel pump, its very small and short. could this just be better technology, or would of there ben a whole differnt fuel pump for a dodge 440 winnie vs a regualr dodge 440?

2. I put that new fuel filter on, but me being the stupid guy I am, I didnt pay attention to weither which side goes where. one side goes all the way in I think, and the other just goes in a little bit.....

3...and hopefully last, call me stupid here, lol, but when you push down on the gas to give it fuel, isint the metal flap on the carb supposed to move, open with more gas, closed with less? I migh of done some fiddling with it before I knew what I was doing....

so if anyone has any ideas, Im lost here....I so shoulda taken auto class in high school....ugh

                                                         -chris



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 1/6/2006 7:22 PM

Chris,

The rod on the fuel pump has to be long enough to ride on a cam lobe...think of it as a pushrod...the cam lobe goes round and round, and pushes on the rod, making the fuel pump work.  If the overall length is the same, but its a slightly different design at the base that makes the rod itself look shorter, don't worry about it.  If its too short altogether however, the fuel pump won't pump.

The fuel filter should have an arrow on it.  The arrow should point towards your carburator, not the fuel tanks.

That flap you are talking about is the choke.  It will only open once the carburator warms up.  There is an electric choke on your carb (should be anyway).  To check it, just turn the key to "on" and leave it there for about 10 minutes.  Assuming you have a good battery, after you do this and step on the gas, the flap will open and stay open (if it doesn't open by itself with just the key on).

Kev



From: denison
Sent: 1/6/2006 7:48 PM

The 440 would have a 4 barrel carburetor, and the front or smaller of the two throats (the primaries) would open with the gas pedal, if you held the choke plate open and looked down inside. The the throttle plate is at the bottom of the carbuetor throats. The larger two throats are the secondaries - and don’t have a choke plate. If your secondaries are vacuum operated, they would only open when the engine was running and you have the gas pedal almost all the way to the floor. You cant do this with the RV sitting still! It must be on the road and zooming along. Its not very safe to drive that way and have the engine cover and air cleaner off - so I don’t advise trying it. if you have mechanically operated secondaires, they would also open when the gas pedal got near to the wide-ope throttle position.
We can assume the old fuel pump had the correct arm length. The new pump should look the same. I think the 440 fuel pumps looked about the same for all years, with only the out-flow fitting pointing in different directions. If you lie under the front of the engine and look striaight up to where the fuel pump mounts to the front-side of the engine, you should see a threaded plug below there. Its about a 1//2" diameter, with an allen head (hex head) hole in it. You might have to scrape away the grease to see it. Removing this plug allows you to push up on the little actuator rod that pushes down onto the arm of the fuel pump. When you take the fuel pump out, that arm can slide down enough to make it impossible to reinstall the pump. With the hex plug out you can push up on the rod with a wire, and put the fuel pump into place. The fuel pump arm will be below that actuator rod, and will hold it in place. The camshaft has a lobe that moves that rod down once per turn, thus working the fuel pump. And once the fuel pump is bolted back, you reinstall the hex plug again..
Some people prefer to let the rod slide all the way out, and then coat it with thick axle grease. Then they can push the rod back in, and the grease will hold it in place until you have the pump back in.
I don’t know what kind of a fuel filter you have or where it goes. I use the in-line kind, and put it into the fuel line just ahead of the fuel pump. That way it keeps the silt out of the fuel pump. I get the plastic ones you can see into, so I can do a visual check for crud clogging. This will be a recurring problem as you use your RV. I carry extra fuel filters with me, at least two extras.
To check if you have fuel in the carburetor float bowl, look down into the primary throats as you move the throttle plate open. You should see thin stream of fuel squirt in, only while the throttle is actually moving open. This is the acceleator pump function.

And if your cabuetors secondary throats are not all the way closed when the engine is at rest, it will be about impossible to start the engine.



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 1/6/2006 8:56 PM

Fuel pump arm is really long on the original? If the arm on the replacement is much shorter than the original, how could it work?!!


ARE YOU SURE IT'S A 440? Where is the distributor cap?

Tom



From: The_Pharaoh_Rulz_
Sent: 1/7/2006 10:37 AM

Changing the fuel pump was one of the very first mechanical things I ever attempted, (and there are very few of those because I'm "mechanically challenged".) but I followed Denison's directions and it was really quite easy.  Once you have the pump "arm" under that cam lobe rod thingy, it's just 2 bolts and putting the fuel lines back on.

I got my OEM fuel pump from NAPA too and the arm was the same length.  I apologize that I don't have the part number thought, this is the only receipt I don't have.  I seem to remember it costing about $16.

- Sob



From: chris0876
Sent: 1/10/2006 9:59 PM

thanks alot guys, I took both fuel pumps into napa and it turns out they had ordered me the wrong one...so I got a new one free of charge, and I got the fuel filter all figured out....you guys are the best!

[tommo]

I have a fuel pump question.
When I took out the old pump I'm afraid maybe a push rod for it or something must have moved.
The new pump is a good match up, but there is nothing showing to make the end of the pump arm move.
I look into the motor no rod or cam just engine bloc.
I have a '77 440-3.I must have a knack for making easy jobs tough
Tom Morrison

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Unless the pushrod broke, in order to remove the rod you have to remove the plug.  So, most likely the rod is there (top back portion of cavity) but is recessed into the bore.  Thats where you want it to install the pump.   Typically, the rod falls down and you have to put chassis grease (or wheel bearing grease) on it in order to get them to stay up in the bore in order to reinstall the pump.

Dave

[tommo]

Dave,
I'm working on mine part time when I get a chance.  I have not been at it since your post.
My question is I see a rod on the plug,  is this how it moves down?  Is that the part that gets put into the bore?  I think I need to buy the manuals from this site.
Thx Tom

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

In order to remove the rod from the cavity, you have to remove the plug.  As I said before, the hole the rod goes into is in the back of the cavity.   That picture was extracted from the service manual.

Dave

[tommo]

Dave,
Thanks your advice was right on.
The rod had dropped all the way to the plug.
At that point it didn't appear to be the driving mech. to me.
I pushed it in place-took some pushing.job went no problem.
Tom