Engine "ticks", No Oil Pressure Showing

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: 77chieftain  (Original Message)
Sent: 10/22/2004 11:39 PM

Took the beast out for the first time since I bought it and it ran good for the time from home to the beach in another county about 120 miles. Next morning, started up hard and had a bad miss with no oil pressure and a lot of gray/blue oil smoke from the left side only. I pulled and changed all the spark plugs to find number 3 cylinder badly oil fouled. Rest are just old. So, with all the new plugs fired it up and it still had a dead hole and bad tick with no oil pressure showing anyway. So, I decide to change the oil pump, sending units, dist cap and rotor. # 3 still oil fouled so I put on a anti-fouler on that one. Still smoked bad at idle not as bad down the raod but still no oil perssure showing on gauge, well vewry little showing after I changed oil pump. IWhen I pulled the sending units, I did start it to see if oil did come up and run out which it did. So, I drove it home today the 120 miles back with no oil pressure showing and ticking badly. Never did get worse but on occasion it did quiet up some. Definatley has a dead hole in #3. My question is what happened? Did a exaust valve fail? Or is it something else/ In the next wekks ahead I will put a actual gauge on the oil port where the sending unit is to get a reading. It must have pressure if it made it home. Still smokes bad only on the left side exaust. No blow by or crank pressure. Any suggestions? 



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 10/23/2004 12:03 AM

Possible causes:

Broken ring(s);
Cracked piston;
Blown head gasket;
Cracked block;

If you are getting bluish-black smoke, I would bet on a broken ring or rings.  If it sat for an extended period, the ring(s) could have been damaged when you started it up.  With no oil pressure showing, it is likely that oil is being pumped past what is left of the rings and out the exhaust where is is burning in the exhaust manifold.  That sounds, from your description, like the best possibility.

John



From: denison
Sent: 10/23/2004 8:51 AM

I would think it could also be an exhaust valve that isnt getting shut. The valves each have 2 springs to pull them shut, and while they rarely both break, that or a bent valve (also rare in these low rpm engines) could also explain the tick and smoke. I can think of another possibility too........
My engine broke a pushrod in 2001, and had zero oil pressure and one cylinder producing no power, for many miles. My wife was driving and didnt notice the loss of power, or the gauge reading.
It was a pushrod for an inlet valve that failed, so it didn't cause a big fuss from compression, and wasnt shaking the engine. When the pushrod finally broke, the camshaft lobe pushed the lifter out of its bore, and zero oil pressure resulted. There was still plenty of oil flow however.
The dashboard on the Kenworth tow truck was fascinating!
At home I drained the oil, and found it free of any metallic particles. The one spark plug was black and oily.
Next step was that I took off the valve cover and could see the pushrod missing, and that several of the pushrods were very slightly bent. I had to remove the intake manifold to get the two parts of the pushrod out, and put the lifter back in its bore. None of the pieces had gotten down into the camshaft gallery and there was no other damage. I replaced all of the bent pushrods. If you had a pushrod break and it got in the way of a neighboring pushrod and damaged that one - you would have the tick noise, and zero oil pressure, but maybe nothing wrong in the block itself.
I examined the engine bearings and crankshaft journals, and while they looked fine and measured okay, I replaced the bearings; because it was now easy to do, the engine had 90,000 miles on it, and we might have driven it as much as 30 miles without oil pressure.
The pushrod had been bent enough to rub against the head casting, until it finally wore itself in two. I had heard the ticking noise for years, but thought it was a weak lifter.

Please let us know what you find.

I also had to replace the mopar oil pressure sending unit years ago, when it died of old age. I had added a mechanical oil pressure gauge when I first got the RV. 



From: 77chieftain
Sent: 10/23/2004 7:47 PM

Thanks for the info. I think with only 39xxx original miles on it that might be the problem. It doesn't push oil out the breather tube and the crankcase has no pressure both would indicate a broken ring or piston. I was thinking it might have screwed up a push rod Now I will research that and see if thats the cause. Since you had no oil pressure showing from it, I may have the same thing. If so, I will replace all the push rods and lifters. I know it had to have someoil pressure or the engine would have seized up. Also, I changed the oil twice and no metal ever came out or in the oil filter. I first changed the oil before I left and put synthetic in. The guy at the parts house wher ei was said he read a article on synthetic in older engines isnt' good for them. So, perhaps that was a cause. At least I know I have a new oil pump with nice clean 30 wt oil in it. I will keep you updated. 



From: denison
Sent: 10/23/2004 9:47 PM

I doubt your use of synthetic oil would have done any damage. I think the -bad- thing about putting synthetic oil in an old engine is that the synthetic -might- dissolve some of the built up petrochemical oil deposits in clumps; and the clumps might collect on the oil pickup screen and cause some oil starvation. Also, if the engine had a full flow oil filter, which I think ours do, the smaller deposits -might- choke off much of the oil flow through the filter. This would be noticeable as gradually lower oil pressure readings over a period of time, and NOT zero readings overnight. Also you would likely have had a definite noise increase from all of the valve train.
If you dont find any other cause for the low oil pressure, take the relief valve apart and see if its stuck, or cruddy or has a bad spring. It is on the outside of the oil pump at the front of the engine. I know its not likely to be bad on a new pump - but its really easy to check.
I wouldnt think the lifters would all need replacement - you can dismantle and clean them. The service manual calls them tappets and tells how to take them apart.
If you do find a broken pushrod, make sure you find all of the little pieces, and dont leave any of them lying around in the valley. If tiny pieces fall into the oil pan they probably wont hurt anything, will just lie in the sludge in the bottom and possibly flow out if you change your oil next time when it is still hot.
And if you drop the pan to check inside -it isnt too hard to remove and replace- , it becomes fairly easy to drop a main bearing and rod bearing cap and inspect the bearings and crankshaft journals for scoring and scalding.



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 10/23/2004 11:26 PM

Denison, thanks for bringing up the pushrod & the valve springs... I didn't think of these.  Lets hope that the pushrod is the problem!

One point about using synthetic oil in these older engines... make sure you seal up places like valve cover gaskets, oil pan gasket, etc, very well.  When synthetic oil gets hot, it "migrates" through any opening it can find -- even porous materials like cork or fiber gasket materials.  The big diesel engines, which use synthetic oils exclusively, all use rubber O-rings and gaskets instead of porous gasket materials on all possible points that have any oil contact at all.  The Cat engines use valve covers that have a channel machined into the mating surface -- the gasket used is actually a 1/4" thick by 3/4" high silicone rubber ribbon that fits into this channel and compresses when bolted down to make a oil-proof seal. 

As far as it knocking loose any petroleum-based deposits, I would use a product called "Mechanic In A Can" -- it is available at some Wal-Marts and most Napa stores (don't know about Auto Zone) -- it comes in a metal 1-quart gold colored can.  It is an engine flush -- you drain the oil, dump in 3 or 4 quarts of this stuff, and run the engine for a little while.  It disolves these deposits in record time, and cleans out the oil passages like new.  When done, simply drain it from the engine (you would be well advised to drop the pan and clean out the sludge if you are switching over to synthetic) and refill with your synthetic or petroleum-based oil.

John



From: 77chieftain
Sent: 11/16/2004 8:02 PM

I finally was able to pull the intake manifold. And what do I find? 2 bent push rods. and 2 lifters out of the bores. So number 1 intake and number 3 intake valves both inoberable due to the bent pushrods and it still made it home after 125 miles. I have purchased new push rods and will replace them all. First time I have ever had this happen in a mopar. Ohwell. if it was a chevy AI would to have had it towed home. LOL.....J



From: denison
Sent: 11/17/2004 7:22 AM

And the pushrods didn't bend by themselves. !!  You had two inlet valves that stuck and you need to free them up first, or you might just bend the new pushrods.   My technique would be to remove the rocker shaft; to have access to the ends of the valve stems.  After squirting thin oil or penetrating oil all over the stems, I would try to move them up and down, repeatedly.   It sounds like yours were stuck fully shut, in which case you could first carefully hammer them open.  Dont be disappointed if they wont free up the first time.  You shouldnt use a hard faced hammer on the end of the stem.  Either use a brass or lead hammer, or better yet, some intermediate rod of aluminum or brass.  If they are already stuck pretty far open, you can try to pry them closed; then push then open.   When you hammer them down or pull them up, exert the force as evenly in line with the valve stem as you can, or you might bend the stem.  Dont quit when they first free up, keep doing it repeatedly till your the valve is fully free and lubed.     
    The valves have oil seals/shields on the stem at the top of the valve guide, which restricts oil access.  So be sure you squirt plenty of oil onto the inlet valves, and give it time to wick around the seals - which after all these years are very much overvulcanized and brittle.   If your engine gives you a puff of blue when first re-starting a warm engine, these old oil seals are the reason.     
    Since the engine ran many miles you can assume the rest of the valves are lubricated (by the oil mist) and are okay.   Even so, I assume that some of the other pushrods arent really straight anymore.
  I would also have a close look at the rocker shaft from that head; to see if the shaft is bent, at the shaft bolts to make sure they arent damaged, and at the affected rockers themselves - for cracks.   Rocker shaft bolts are tightened to 25 ft-lbs, the rocker cover bolts to 40 inch-pounds.     3 ft-lbs?   



From: 77chieftain
Sent: 12/29/2004 6:25 PM

Well, I finally got it fixed and completeed today. I even painted everything that should be painted blue. I fired it up, and after all the oil smoke cleared out it ran great. It has excellent oil pressure(top of gauge) and seems to be better than before. Now, I need some vacuum help. I know I saw something about it on here but I dont know who it was. I have the 440-3 with california emissions and I have the factory service manual but its not clear about everything. I also want to know where the cruise control vacuum hooks up. If anyone can help me out that would greatly appreciated. I have dual canisters with egr. Thanks for nay help.



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 12/29/2004 10:06 PM

Good to hear!  You can do a Message Search using the keyword "vacuum" to find any other Discussions on this topic. - Sob



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 12/29/2004 10:06 PM

The cruise control module connects to the intake manifold nipple about 2 inches behind the carb.  The one right beside the cruise control actuator.  It uses the intake manifold runners for cylinders 6 and 7.   My engine (440-3 with egr and the dual cannisters) runs about 17-18 inches of vacume in park and 15-16 in drive at idle.

Dave