413 heads on a 440?

[rattlenbang]

As I've mentioned before, getting 440 parts on Vancouver Island is a pain. But here's an interesting thought: can I swap my 413-3 heads onto the 440-3? That would save me both the hassle of finding an new manifold and having to change out the two exhaust pipes. I read one Mopar forum thread that says yes, but I'm not sure if they are talking the regular auto engines and what difference there is between the -3 big blocks and the -1 big blocks. 

[Oz]

Here's the difference between the -1 and - 3 big blocks:

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,547.msg29942.html#msg29942

According to this tech article, the heads are interchangeable.  The detailed, technical, mechanical data is very in-depth in the accomanying tables.

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,6754.msg28351.html#msg28351

Also, for anyone reading this.. HE doesn't need the exhaust system from manifold back but, you would have to do exhaust work if you didn't already have a complete one.  Quoted from Dave D.:

The 413 exhaust system has No Part in common with the 440, -not even close- so you would need the 413 manifolds, a set of exhaust pipes to fit them, the dual inlet muffler, etc, unless you made up custom parts from the manifolds back.

The 413 was produced for only a few, short years and parts for them are harder to find than for a 440 as a result.

[rattlenbang]

Okay, so swapping heads takes care of a lot of manifold woes and deals with a worn bottom end on my 413. My next concern is finding a gasket set for an industrial 440. THere's a local guy selling a full rebuild kit for a 440 for 50 bucks, but that won't be for a 440-3. I can just see all the blank stares from jobber staff who have no idea what I'm asking them, cause they weren't even born when this stuff was current and everyone knew about them.

[Oz]

Maybe the real difference is between the 413-440-3 and not the 440-1

That is also a very accurate statement.  It's most often very innacurate when people use examples of CAR engines and say, "Oh yeah, you can do this, you can do that..." as if everything is the same and interchangeable ... it isn't... the RV motor has significant differences because of the intended use. 

[rattlenbang]

Actually, it's not the exhaust manifold gaskets that I would need but the 440-3 head gaskets for when I swap the 413 heads (complete with 413 exhaust manifolds still attached) onto the 440 block.
Funny thing is that when this is all done, guys will argue it's got a 413 in it by the heads and unique manifolds, when actually it will be a 440.

[Oz]

Is the 413 you have blown or something?

[rattlenbang]

Lower end is shot. Con rod bearings, and probably crank bearings as well. I just want to get this thing running on a shoestring for one long final voyage where it will be a cabin in the desert. Picked up a 440 for a good price. hope to just drop it in and go.

[Oz]

Hmmm.. head gasket.  If it's made, I think Mr. Gasket would be the one to make it.

[rattlenbang]

So it's official. 413-1 and 440-3 heads are not the same.



413 block and head with coolant passage from water pump.

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440 head. No coolant passages in front of head, and head is much lower profile.
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But the blocks appear the same. The 413 water pump will bolt to this 440 block and then to the 413 heads. The upper holes where the 440 pump bolts to the block supply coolant to the heads through the block, rather than externally as it does with the 413. The 413 pump has these upper holes blocked off in the 413 block.
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So I believe you can make a Frankenmotor with a 440-3 block and 413 heads and water pump.

[Oz]

At least you gave it whirl, like Fredric said, "What have you got to lose?"... by trying.  If it would have worked, then all the posts ever made before would have been proven wrong and you would have been able to get your motor going with minimal investment.  And we wish it would have worked out that way.

But, you reinforced what others had determined and even better, you made an excellent description of the reasons why... with pictures.

This will certainly put to rest any debate about it in the future and help those who will certainly have the same question again.

[rattlenbang]

Finally got the conversion done: 413 heads, water pump housing and pump, 413 harmonic damper (barely fits), and 413 flex plate bolted to a 440 block. Engine runs incredible smooth and is much more powerful than the old blown 413.

It was a huge amount of work, and people need to realize that there is a lot to converting a 413 to a 440: exhaust from the muffler forward is totally different and the radiator is different (the rad hoses for the 413 are twice the size as a 440). The flex plates look the same but are a different size.
If you need to replace your engine, parts for the 440 are a lot more common, but you will either have to swap the heads, harmonic damper, water pump and flex plate, or replace the rad and big chunk of exhaust system. The first option isn't expensive but is a lot more work, the second would be quicker but not cheap.

[Oz]

Thanks for the update!  This was an incredibly good topic that answered a long standing question in need of "proof positive" verification.

Now... get that rig rolling to its destination!

 

[Stripe]

Sweet!  I hate it when I do research and the info ends up being wrong one way or 'tother...  On the plus side, I am now further edumicated..

[rattlenbang]

Yeah, I couldn't believe the amount of work it was. It didn't help that the friggin' engine weighs around 800 lbs, and that half the exhaust studs snapped off the heads and had to be drilled out. Those bolts are hard. We even had to cut out part of the fiberglass nose to clear the engine through the grill slot (still ended up busting the windshield washer reservoir).
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We also had the truck parked in grass so you can imagine what it was like moving the engine hoist with that iron monster dangling off it. Once the engine was out, discovered a manifold cracked almost all the way around, and yet it hardly made any exhaust noise at all.

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The nice thing about tearing down an engine you're going to install is you get a look at her guts, and those cylinders looked new. Explains the 80psi oil pressure I'm getting now 

Arizona is going to be sweet this winter!

[cosmic]

A little trick I used to get the snapped bolts out was to cut a line in the broken bolt with a zip disc. (thin disk on a grinder) I cut a bit of the block but very minimal.
this allowed for a flat head screw driver to be used. I then used my oxy/bum torch to heat all around the broken bolts being careful not to heat the broken bolts. This expanded the metal around the broken bolt allowing me to unscrew the broken bolts with ease. it work on all 8 with out a hitch. much easier then drilling.

[Stripe]

I use a stud wrench myself if there is enough of the bolt sticking out..

[rattlenbang]

in my case a few had half the bolt left, so I ground opposite edges flat and used a wrench and torch on them. Only one moved, the rest just broke. They were really rusted.