Engine & transmission temps running very high

[Arberg0]

From: jdquattros  (Original Message) Sent: 7/17/2003 1:03 AM

I could use some advice/info from the group. I have been slowly fixing up our 1979 Cheiftain, 29 foot with 440. We took it recently on a 700 mile trip thru Colorado mountains and had several problems. I do not have much free time as I work lots of OT. IBefore I start replacing all kinds of parts please maake some suggestions.
The engine outlet temp (new digital gage) was 190F or higher with outside temp as low as 70F. At 92F, the outlet would stabilize at 230F. Going up hills, I had to be carefull as it would rise to 260-at which point the original dash gage would just be on high on the line.The fan clutch is new. Fan original. AC was not operational
The transmission fluid would climb to the end of hot segment going up even gradual hills if prologed. An electric fan installed pushing thru aux trans cooler di not help much.. What is typical? Are there better fan blades available? How sensitive is radiator core cleanliness to efficency.
Thanks
JD 
 

From: Colin Sent: 7/17/2003 1:52 AM

I'm in Denver so give me a holler if you ever come through the mountains particularly if you have a problem. I'll be glad to help. I agree that your engine is running too hot. I would recommend taking out your radiator and having it cored and flushed. For me it was $50 well spent. Don't trust the original dash gauge. What temp. thermostat are you running with? I use a 180 deg thermostat because I frequently drive mine when it's in the 90's or above. My engine runs at about 220 deg. while going uphill with a full load in 90 deg. temps. You might try replacing the thermostat with a cooler one or one with a larger flow-through capacity or both. Make sure to check it with some boiling water before you install it. Overhauling the radiator, flushing out the cooling passages and replacing the thermostat won't cost that much and it should help your problem considerably. For the tranny, I'll defer to the real mechanics.

C.
   

From: rshaw500 Sent: 7/17/2003 8:38 AM
Colin,
I think you meant to say to have your radiator rodded and cleaned.   Having it cored would cost a lot more than 50 dollars.   I used to do a lot of work for my father in law who owns a radiator shop.   This proceedure used to be very popular.   You would take the top tank off the radiator and then run rods down through the tubes to clean out any crap.   Not too many places do this anymore because it is easier and more cost efficient to just sell you a new radiator.   If your motorhome was on a dodge chassis then you really have to check it out because mopar always required at least a 50/50 antifreeze content in the cooling system.   Many people owning dodge products would just put in water and this caused a lot of them to go bad.   I would also remove the thermostat and buy a product that you put into the cooling system and run the vehicle until it gets very hot......this cleans the inside of your cooling system.   When you are done draining the water with this flush in it you replace your thermostat.   By the way.....my motorhome's engine calls for a 195 degree thermostat.
Rick 


From: Colin Sent: 7/17/2003 12:53 PM


You're right - rodded and cleaned - that's why I call you guys the real mechanics.

C. 
   

From: mightybooboo Sent: 7/17/2003 4:37 PM
Speed shops also sell thermostats that if they fail they fail in the open position.
BooBoo 
   

From: jdquattros Sent: 7/18/2003 12:56 AM
I live in south Evergreen. I searched for new radiators and think I found replacement (new) for under $200. I wanted to make somewhat sure that I did not need to do something drastic before I ordered a same size replacement radiator. The thermostat was the recommended one. I remember it being expensive and had large flow area. Anyone using fan other than factory with good results. I want to remove all this stuff once. Also, anyone with particular experience with the 440 rear main seal?
Thanks

JD 
 

From: Harold Sent: 7/18/2003 1:03 AM
HAL HERE. HAVE A 79 BRAVE WITH 440. HAD SAME PROBLEM WHEN I BOUGHT MINE. FOUND THAT A CAR THERMOSTAT HAD BEEN INSTALLED INSTED OF A TRUCK ONE.  CAR ONE WILL FIT BUT THE OPENING IS 1" SMALLER. 190 IS THE ONLY MADE NOW. HAVE DRIVEN OVER THE GRAPE VINE FROM L.A. TO SACRAMENTO  AND ONLY WENT TO 200 
   

From: denison Sent: 7/18/2003 9:51 AM
About rear main seals - Do you have the service manual for your Dodge chassis? I think the 440 and the 413 rear main seals and retainers are the same. I replaced the bottom half of my rear seal after I replaced the crankshaft bearings. The bottom half of the seal is in an aluminum retainer, bolted up with bolts having about a 3/8 inch 12 point head. I had to buy a 12 point socket to fit them. Getting the retainer and seal out was easy, and I didn't plan to mess with the upper half, engine only had 89000 miles. I got a new rope seal and just used the bottom half. Getting the retainer back in properly was mysterious to me. There are two rubber strips used to seal between each side of the retainer and the block, and getting the strips to slide up with the retainer, into the grooves in the block, didn't go nicely. I wound up poking some rtv in the joint and hoping the thing would not leak much. I have put about 1000 miles on the winny since then - back in April- and so far I don't see any leak. And I don't see how it would be much easier to install that seal retainer even with the engine upside down on the workbench.
I use the original radiator fan on my 413, did buy a new fan clutch in 2001. My air cleaner label said to use a 180 or 160 degree thermostat, but then its a 1972. I have used a 195 and a 160, am using a 180 degree unit right now, and thats what was in it when we crossed the rockies in 93. With a clean cooling system and a 50/50 mixture, all three thermostats seemed to work well, but in cold weather I wouldn't want the 160 - cause the heater wouldnt be warm enough. denison
   
From: UluzYarx Sent: 2/21/2004 4:58 AM
Your oil temperature is more important than your water temp.

As long as you are not close to boiling and your oil is within its operational range you are OK.
As long as your transmission fluid is within its operating range you are OK.

My turbo charged diesel heats the oil to its operating temperature deliberately before it start to cool it.

Modern oil and fluids have much higher maximum temperatures.
Synthetic oils have even higher operating possibilities than mineral oils.

In my ex-buick V8, when I changed to syntheitic oil, I saved the extra cost of the oil in 3000 miles because I got more miles per gallon. 


From: Jim83Itasca Sent: 2/21/2004 12:31 PM
JD one of the things discovered on my 83 Itasca (454) was the radiator was a 4 row BUT with 3/8 crossflow tubes.
A new core was built (same 4 row) but with 1/2 inch tubes which lowered the temps some.
The next thing was the ignition, true to form it was set at the stock settings (4º btdc) which will heat you up also.
Mechanical ignition advance only gave 12º @ 3300 rpm and i dont cruise at that rpm ! 2750 is my cruise rpm.
Now 4+12= 16º but from the factory the vacuum advance was 22º and connected to full manifold vac.
Well cruising on the straight & flat @ 2750 rpm i probably had a total advance around 30-34º BUT climbing up the hills with zero vacuum i'm back to 16º which is retarded and severly heats up the motor.
I'm now set @ 10º idle (750 rpm vac advance disconnected) and the distributer mechanical is 24º @ 3000 rpm so total is 34º @ 3000 (or so).
A chevy (ac delco) 10º vacuum advance part# 1-1973577 also is installed. Perhaps we can get into the 50/50 antifreeze debate later but if you change out the radiator please completely flush out everything connected to the cooling system and re-fill with distilled water.

Jim 
 

From:UluzYarxSent: 2/22/2004 5:56 PM
USE ENGINE FLUSH BEFORE YOUR CHANGE TO SYNTHETIC OIL.
To clean the inside of your engine. 
 

From: Im-still-Lefty Sent: 2/23/2004 12:31 AM
As a side note, Manufacturers of synthetic oils warn not to use in engines with 60,000 miles or greater, The reason is that the synthetic oils contain much more powerful detergents that can, and will, remove the carbon deposits from around the rings, which can cause smoking, or collapsed rings. Also, they will break up deposits of crud which have accumulated on the inside of the crankcase, this crud will almost always clog up the oil pump pickup screen. Synthetics are great for fresh rebuilt engines, but don't ever switch to them after the engines are old. Also, my experience with engine flush is that it too can cause a lot more harm than good. I recommend a more gradual cleanup over a couple of oil changes by adding "Marvel Mystery Oil" to the engine, "one pint at oil change" this will clean the living s**t out of an engines internals, but does so at a rate that the filtering system can handle. Great for the lifters too.  Lefty 
   

From: Tymhoff Sent: 2/23/2004 11:34 AM
Another way that I've heard to help gradually clean the inside of your engine is to drain out a quart of oil and replace it with a quart of transmission fluid. Run that for 10 minutes or so then drain and replace the oil and filter.


From:UluzYarxSent: 2/23/2004 2:13 PM
Hi Lefty,
~
An interesting point there that Manufacturers of synthetic oils warn not to use in engines with 60,000 miles because they remove the carbon deposits from around the rings, which can cause smoking, or collapsed rings and they block the pump pre-filter.
~
Over here in the UK, I'm a bit out of touch with US products, but it sounds as though your oils are lethal in old engines.
Please will you point me towards the US makers who issue those dire warnings - I use this sort of material when I prepare syllabi for drop out students and it sounds just the thing to get their interest and thus get them back into society.
~
Please will you also give me a few sites which state that synthetics are great for fresh rebuilt engines as over here manufacturers recommend that fresh built engines are run on mineral oils for the first ten thousand miles.
In Europe, oil and car makers recommend as above,
~
Amazing that two continents should view things so differently.
Dave 
   

From: Im-still-LeftySent: 2/23/2004 5:30 PM
Hi Dave. Mobil, maker of Mobil One Synthetic is the manufacturer I was referring to. To clarify about using in rebuilt engines. I only meant after the first 3,000 miles. You are correct that non-detergent oil,(mineral oil) should be used until the engine has "broken in" use of high detergent oils before this time can cause problems with the new rings properly seating themselves to the cylinder walls. Sorry for the confusion. Lefty 
     

From: mightybooboo Sent: 2/23/2004 9:17 PM
To add a bit more confusion,some hi perf vehicles(I believe corvette is  one?) come fresh from  the maker with syn oils,and a lot of vehicles now come with syn in the rear ends and trannies.Guess they must be better if they will pay and recommend its use.I saw a mag that tested em against regular oil,it was only in the very low and very high temp areas where they did excell,but they did by a wide margin at those extremes.Really hard to say anything about oil as a concrete statement with all the rapidly changing things going on right now in that regard.But its starting to  look like the break in with dino oil,then syn,may be changing.
BooBoo 
 

From: UluzYarx Sent: 2/24/2004 2:56 PM
I think that improved engineering in factory engine manufacture means that factory built engines don't need a break in oil.
~
I don't know of any reputable engine reconditioners who have that level of engineering in the UK.
Are there any in the States?
Dave


From:UluzYarx Sent: 2/24/2004 3:08 PM
Hi Lefty,
Are you sure that Mobil are still telling customers "do not use synthetic oil in old engines"?
~
In the UK they droppped the warning some years ago, but I believe that in the US companies protect themselves more.
~
I just visited Mobil's site, I couldn't find the warning.
Here's what I found: -
"Applications
Mobil 1 15W-50 is recommended for all types of vehicles, suitable for use in high-performance turbo-charged, supercharged gasoline and diesel multi-valve fuel injected engines found in passenger cars, light vans and trucks.
Mobil 1 15W-50 is suitable extreme engine stress conditions, where conventional oil often cannot perform.
Mobil 1 is not recommended for 2-Cycle or aviation engines, unless specifically approved by the manufacturer. "
In the UK "all types of engines means just that", and if you put it in one place, you can't un-put it somewhere else.

I look forward to reading your ideas - Dave


From:Im-still-Lefty Sent: 2/25/2004 1:20 AM
Look, All I'm going by is what I have been told at product knowledge seminars held by my employer "NAPA" where different manufacturer reps. are invited to showcase their products and discuss the pros and cons of their use. This is more of an "insider" affair, and many of the details are not generally given to the public at large. (no company is going to put out possible "bad press" about their products). And through years as a professional mechanic. Don't get me wrong, I think if you want to use it in an older engine, be my guest. It's yours to do with as you please. But I felt that before someone put it into an engine that is probably 25+ years old, they should be aware of the possible consenquenses. Lefty 
   

From:UluzYarx Sent: 2/25/2004 5:51 AM
Hi Lefty and everyone else,

I put your informations to a discussion group; they leapt on it like a bunch of terriers after a Bugger on heat.
In no time they converted it into a wonderful nihilistic argument justifying their anti-social behaviour on the basis that commercialism tricked the masses into parting with their hard-earned and that they were right to rubbish everything.
~
I put your (Lefty's) points to Red Line (they brought Red Line into the UK) on the basis of helping me with the students.
~
Dave Granquist at Red Line replied: -
" The Red Line synthetic oils are suitable for use in higher mileage engines and are not extremely aggressive toward and deposits that may have built up in an older engine. We wouldn't see a reason not to use our oil in most older engines, generally a higher viscosity isn't required as clearances in most engines run with current petroleum oils are not excessive.



Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil"

I bought an old nail Ford with a Pinto engine (4 cylinder overhead camshaft engine) with 90,000 on the clock about 8 years ago.
It needed a tow start to get it here.
The oil got hot on the way home but the oil filter remained stone cold- obviously blocked.
The air filter was so blocked it would only start with a tow.
I drained the oil, put in some el-cheapo mineral oil and some STP oil flush; let it tick over for half an hour.
Drained oil an watched gloop ooze out into a tray..
Filled with 5-40 synthetic - stuck a new winter stat in the cooling system - replaced the mechanical fan with an electric pusher - set the electronic switch to hot.
Ran it to around 130,000.
It started on the button and ran quietly when I sold it 8 years later ~ the guy bought it for the engine.

My '43 jeep had about 1/2" of sludge in the bottom a the oil filter casing; I had to scrape some of it out.
It's pretty certain that it had been run on appropriate, non-detergent, 30 grade mineral oil beforehand.
Cleaned as above - runs sweet as a nut 4 years later; so much so that people can't believe how quiet the old engine is.
I know little of its history, but the engine looks pretty sad beneath peeling paint and cankering rust patches.
Still pulls stumps like a traction engine though; must get round to straightening the front bumper after a particularly stubborn holly tree.

I understand that modern mineral oils sold in the UK shift the muck about aggressively as synthetic oils.
Do you have any insider knowlewdge on the relative detergency of US mineral oils Lefty?
Look forward to feeding your info to my urban terrorists?
Thank for your help so far.

All the best - Dave 
   

From: mightybooboo Sent: 2/25/2004 12:29 PM
Oil and Carbs,2 subjects just guaranteed to be controversial.Just add religion and politics and stand back!
BooBoo 


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From:UluzYarxSent: 2/26/2004 1:17 PM
Eh by gum Lad, thay've got a canny sense of humour Booboo.

The Great Carburettor Wars?
Or East Side Story with Synths and Mins?

Nice one Booboo, you gave me a girt big chuckle.

All the best Dave 
 

From: <NOBR>Taddpowl1</NOBR> Sent: 2/26/2004 6:21 PM
I have a 1973 winne 440 Dodge, the fan was designed to cool that type engine, and believe me it's different, than any other I have seen. Put the origional Dodge fan on and no matter what else you do you will be set. Jim