Anyone use "Blue Flame" Heaters?

[DRMousseau]

I have to make preparations for a bit tougher winter stay here in Michigan, as I likely won't be headed to Florida till mid-January, this year,... and that's a MIGHTY cold time of year here.

My 28,000btu Coleman furnace has output rating of 21,000btu. It's old, noisy, and I'm not totally confidant in that output rating, it jus isn't near enough comfort when temps drop much below freezing. AND that input consumption really eats the LP!!! Quite inefficient, with a lot of heat lost out the exhaust vent, not to mention the big power requirements of the dual-fan, I'm considering a "Vent-less Blue Flame" heater and small 12VDC circulating fan. The ol' Winnebago is far from being air tight, and I'm well aware of humidity issues, but a 20,000btu "Blue Flame" would seem far better with it's 99.9% efficiency and ALL my LP's btu's being used to heat the inside with.

Safety issues will be addressed as are insulation, skirting, and other winterization issues, but does anyone have any experience with these "Blue Flame" heaters??? What were your choices??? Any issues??? Inconveniences??? Have they met expectations in comfort, cost, and LP usage???

[Rickf1985]

I know you are aware of the Carbon monoxide issues as you mentioned but what would worry me is you get it and then find out that it is setting of the CO alarm all the time which of coarse is a bad thing for your health and your wallet because you now cannot use that heater plus you are back to the old one. 99,9% efficient means all of the waste heat is kept inside which means all of the Co. is also kept inside so research it well my friend. I am interested to see what you find.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

There is several things you can do to make winter months a bit more bareable.  Window/vent covering, skirts, floor insulation, ducting, etc.  You might pick up some ideas here http://www.doityourselfrv.com/canadian-couple-turned-144-square-foot-5th-wheel-gorgeous-tiny-home/ 

[DRMousseau]

Thanks Dave,... there's a huge difference between "bearable" and "Comfortable". And I'm making MANY preparations for "my li'l cabin on wheels". Since winter matters ARE and will often be an issue for me, I'm thinkin of installin' a canopy rail with trim insert around the entire RV at a level jus above the wheel wells in place of the current trim rail (w/slight variations in front and rear). This will allow the quick installation of a poly tarp "skirt", formed into a pocket that can hold rigid insulation such cheap foam board or even layers of folded scrap cardboard boxes (also good for windows). Quick, economical, easy and rather efficient, the only draw back is occasional ice buildup in the channel... and that's even easy to overcome. I'm also working on issues with the waste tank and pluming drains,... the most vulnerable and most exposed utility. ALL OF THIS, must maintain access for maintenance, inspection, and unforeseen repair or replacement to all systems.

My biggest issue is minimizing LP expense to maintain comfort. I often shut down my hot water to lower costs. Since I'm the only "resident", my hot water usage is minimal and someday an "on demand" system may replace the OEM equipment with more convenience and economy. Perhaps my biggest use of LP is refrigeration!!! LoL!!! VERY minimal,... unless I'm heating for warmth and comfort! The stove and oven is minimally used too, although microwave usage is often abandoned if power is an issue.

Rick,... did you know that many stove and ovens are actually "vent-less Blue Flame" appliances??? Although those found in our Classic Winnebago's are FAR more hazardous!!! Most have undependable open-flame pilots in the oven, and absolutely NONE of the safety features from todays technology. Modern "Blue Flames" have oxygen sensors that shut down and prevent operation when ambient oxygen levels are depleted,... they only function when well above safe levels for human and animal needs. CO emissions ARE a concern, especially in a "confined" area by a specific definition. Such heaters are not for use in some bathrooms and bedrooms by "confined definitions". Common sense application with an understanding of technology is good guideline,.... it's what keeps us from using wood-fired heaters and fireplaces in our RVs.

Water Vapor is a major byproduct of "Blue Flame" LP combustion. As much as a pint per hour or more in some cases. THIS is what we see when baking and cooking at home, and is NOT so much from the foods we are preparing. I'll bet you never noticed this difference in the "modern electric kitchen". It is also why we use VENTED heaters and furnaces in RV applications and you may have observed the volumes of steam from such vents when in use.

Drippy surfaces, damp clothes and bedding, and steamy windows are not desirable in an RV, and adequate ventilation MUST be provided for this factor, and also accommodates CO and oxygen levels too. My concern is if this ventilation and accompanying heat loss outweighs the economy, efficiency and benefits of "Blue Flame" heaters in RV applications.

The versatility of these heaters for home, garage, workshop, basement, fish shacks, and more,.... would seem to make the rather low cost investment of such an item, ($200-$300 including necessary hookups and mods)worthwhile to at least try.  I can always find others who might better have a need for such, if it jus isn't what I expect and hope for. I'm also considering a 50 or 100 pound short term LP tank rental to stretch the time between refills of my current 20lbs tanks, as I'm more stationary during these cold periods. I've even left my roof black hoping for a bit of solar advantage, but there's not much sunshine at these latitudes during winter,... although it get hot as hell in the summer!!!

My research has found that some find these "Blue Flame" heaters troublesome at higher elevations, due to reduced oxygen levels and the built-in safety features. LP doesn't have the BTU potential of other fuels, but oil and gasoline are jus not practical heating fuels in RVs. And neither are electric BTUs when mega watts are necessary, although you can bet I'll use an electric heater when I'm paying for AC hookups at the RV parks!!!

I keep thinkin I'm overlooking an alternative technology that may be better.

[rustyzman]

     I use one in my garage for winter heat while I am out there.  30K BTU.  It works well, but...  There is an odor that goes with it.  I am not sure how to describe it.  If you have even been in an enclosed area that uses a torpedo heater, you will know what smell I mean.  It is not as intense as that, but it is there. 
     The moisture issue is certainly there.  It could act as a bit of a humidifier in the winter and help a little.  In my garage it translates to more surface rust on items. 
     My unit will empty a regular grill propane bottle in about 8-10 hours.  It will get my somewhat insulated garage up to 50-55 deg F in the dead of winter around Chicagoland after a few hours use (10-20 outside). 
     It is inexpensive and practical for my use.  It has never shut down on me from Oxygen Depletion, but it gets perhaps a touch fumey after being out there for a while. 
     It will also burn anything that is in the air, dust, other fumes, etc. and will go Non Blue Flame while that is burning. 

I am kind of interested in the catalytic heater myself.  I have a couple portable ones that I will try this winter during some projects just to see how they do.  Same issues of CO though.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

We use a Wave catalytic heater, and it works extremely well with WAY less propane used.  On the coldest days that we get, we fire up the propane furnace to get the chill out of the air in the morning (ducted on the floor), and then turn it off, turn on the catalytic heater, and it stays toasty in the RV.

Kev

[fasteddie313]

How about a small pellet stove?

[JessEm]

Early January or late January?  It makes a difference if it's anything like Minnesota there, which I'm sure it is... Late January almost certainly means a frozen water heater if it's turned off, and possibly pipes too. Not to mention the waste tanks...

Just shooting from the hip here (and thinking outside the box), but I would almost consider one of those thermostat controlled torpedo heaters under your rig, as long as it's skirted around the bottom. Like a new building during construction... This would sort of heat everything and create an ambient heat situation, as well as keep the carbon monoxide outside.

[rustyzman]

You know, thinking of warming the underside while it is skirted, a couple of 250watt IR brooding lamps might help a bit too.  Especially if you are already plugged in somewhere and don't have a separate electric bill to deal with.  They will heat objects and not the air itself.  I use one over my mill in the winter to keep me and possibly a bit of the machine bearable without heating everything.  Could be done safely too.  You can even find those old Sun Lamps at garage sales cheap.  Just check the wiring to make sure it is still in good shape. 

[DRMousseau]

Thanks Folks,.... this topic was started by me jus over a month ago. A week later, the ol' Winnebago took a bad tumble from which there was no recovery. In immediate and dire need of a new home, I have recently purchased and moved into an '87 Cruise Air II by Georgie Boy, a 34' raised floor model. OMG what an unexpected upgrade!!!

I had serious cold weather concerns in the ol' Winnebago. Winters here in western North Michigan are much like Minnesota. Mid January temps can be about 10 degrees warmer with lake effect. Still, with temps hovering near zero, water supplies and especially the waste tank being so exposed below, I had strongly considered insulated skirting and much more to protect the exposed utilities. Even the water tank gave me some concern. NOT SO with my new home! With raised floors, all tanks and supply lines are far more enclosed and protected in a "basement" area. The main water tank is completely within a heated area, and waste tanks may need nothing more than a 40w light to keep the enclosed and lightly insulated utility compartment above freezing. And all utility lines are insulated and within protected areas. Although I'm not sure of the furnace sizes (there are two), they definitely are FAR more efficient!!! I now expect winter expenses to certainly be no more and actually even LESS than the ol' Winnebago.

I am also considering Kevin's option, a small radiant catalytic for use in the main living area of my new home, as an auxiliary heater that consumes less propane and no electric. This will surely be handy when "boondocking" too. My small electric heater will still be handy when electric sources are of no concern. And while the AC does have a circulating fan, it likely won't be used much as those I have use much less power and are much quieter.

Far from the cozy tiny cabin comforts I once had, the roomy luxuriousness of The Cruise Air II is in EXCELLENT condition, and while door and window seals an' gaskets are no longer a concern, I AM still thinkin about added window insulation or interior storm window covers of some sort to minimize heat lose a bit more.

[Rickf1985]

Doc, Keep in mind that if you us a supplementary heater that prevents the coach heater from running then you take the chance of freezing your pipes and tanks. The tanks and pipes are set up to be heated by the coach heater and are below the floor. Any supplementary heater will not heat that area and it will keep the regular heater off. I know on my 89 Winnebago I go through a LOT of propane trying to keep it warm in 20 degree windy weather. They are just not well insulated. You can get electric heaters to stick on your tanks. The drain pipes are a different story, heat tape is about the only choice. This all adds up to a lot of electricity.

[DRMousseau]

Yes Rick, and a HUGE concern in the ol' Winnebago. With tanks, drains and plumbing so critically exposed, I had thought about enclosing those areas in some manner and STILL supplying direct and/or supplemental heat in any number of various manner. I had jus replaced all drains and the waste tank due to previous damage from extreme weather.

But the Cruise Air II is jus SOOOOO much better in these considerations. The 90gal water tank is beneath the bed in the rear. It has the converter and electrical box there too, as well as heating ducts that exit on each side of the bed base. ALL supply lines AND DRAINS, are within the cabin, thru the cabinets. The drains exit straight down thru the floor and straight into the tanks, NOTHING is exposed to the outside elements,... well, almost. The two waste tanks (40gal each I believe) are located in an enclosed lightly insulated bunk. This area can be easily warmed with little more than a light bulb, and it will likely be necessary to keep the valves and drains free and clear for dumping. Of course, the service side of the hot water heater is exposed and covered only by a typical light access door, and I might keep a minimal hot water temp. But the water heater itself in within an accessible interior cabinet beneath the fridge.

The Cruise Air II is actually set up better than any mobile home, and I expect far fewer problems than many of those that live in mobile homes here in the area. IF I were to spend the worst of the winter here, I would likely bank the low skirts with snow to reduce cold air flowing when consistent temps approach 20F or less. With a "full basement" there's very little floor exposed, and mostly in the driving area. I actually expect far more comfort than I had experienced in the ol Winnebago Brave, and I will only be here in the north a week or two longer than last year. And with AC, good ventilation, and no black rubber roof,.... I expect to be a bit more comfortable in Florida a little longer too.

[Rickf1985]

No doubt at all you are going to be MUCH more comfortable. Just don't get over confident. From your posts I can be pretty sure that will not happen but just sayin'.