1972 Dodge 413-1 Alternator installation problems

[MSN Member]

From: ClydesdaleKevin  (Original Message)
Sent: 4/4/2006 5:30 PM

Hey guys,

I took my old alternator in to have it tested, since I was only getting 12.5 volts at the batteries, and even after I cleaned up all the wires and grounds, the results were the same.

On the test bench, it tested at 10 volts, so it was obviously bad.  That said, the one they had in stock LOOKED, at first glance, to be exactly the same as the one I had.  I took it back to the Ark, and that is when the nightmares began:

The mounts were identical, and even though it had two grooves instead of one on the pulley, it WOULD have slid into place with no problems, except the back of the alternator is hitting the fuel pump!

So, it appears that the back of the alternator casting is about an 1/8th to a 1/4 inch thicker than the original alternator.

I removed the fuel pump just to mock up the placement of the alternator without the fuel pump in place, and lo and behold, it fits exactly, and the belt and wires line up exactly.

That said, I looked at the fuel pump itself....hmmmmmmmm

Instead of what the stock fuel pump is supposed to look like according to the service manual, the one that is on the Ark looks like some sort of high performance version!  According to the service manual, the 413-1 fuel pump has the bell shaped diaphram housing, and hanging underneith that is a single tube, which has two fuel fittings coming off of it.  The one that is on the Ark has a huge bell shaped diaphram housing, with TWO tubes hanging off the bottom of it, with one fuel hose fitting on each tube...hmmmmmmm

I called the local parts place, an Advanced Auto, and they reconfirmed that I have the right alternator.  They also looked up the fuel pump, and the picture they have of it (they ordered one for me, and it will be here tomorrow) is the same as the one in the service manual.

So what do you think is going on?

Did some P/O use a high performance fuel pump, and then got lucky because the original alternator was a hair thinner than the new replacements?  Do you think that a stock fuel pump will give me more clearance?  Am I totally off base, and the fuel pump I have IS stock?  What am I supposed to do?  Grind off the excess material on the back of the new alternator?  Oi vey!

I added a picture of the new alternator and the "high performance" fuel pump to the album, The Ark, 1972 Futura .  If you are familiar with the 413-1 fuel pump, can you look to see if its the right one?  Also, if you have had a similar alternator issue in the past, can you give me a heads up?

Thanks guys!!!  I'll let you know how my new fuel filter works out tomorrow.

Kev



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 4/4/2006 6:55 PM

Kev,
It should fit....but...

First,
did you reinstall it correctly? The front brace goes Behind the alternator front mounting flange... that
There is a slip/crush collar that was on the original alternator, NOT the new one. You need to use the OLD collar. And it'll fit. You could return it and get the single pulley at even Auto Zone for a 76 RM350 with a 318 or 360, and it's the same single-groove alternator. The dual groove alternator may not line up with the single pulley water pump shaft or the harmonic balancer.... and if you try and use it, you may go through belts like mad, or have to space the alternator out with washers.... and Don't use the outer groove, you'll kill the alternator bearings in a few hundred miles.....

And...yeah I have a few extra of the slip shafts in case yours left with the old alternator...!

Tom



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 4/4/2006 7:06 PM

Yeah Tom, I used the old sleeve from the old alternator, after removing the big long one from the replacement alternator.  I'll ask them tomorrow, when I got to see/maybe purchase the new fuel pump, about the single pulley version, but with the fuel pump out of the way, the belt seems to be in perfect alignment on the inner groove. 

I'll keep you posted...let me know if the picture I'm about to post in the Ark album of the fuel pump looks aftermarket "performance", or stock.

Kev



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 4/4/2006 7:09 PM

if your online,
go to the south chapter site and meet me in the chat room....



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 4/4/2006 7:14 PM

Kev,
That's a stock 413 fuel pump in the picture....

I'm There now...

Tom



From: denisondc
Sent: 4/5/2006 2:02 PM

Kevin; i checked how my alternator is mounted. It is higher than the fuel pump; even the bottom of the alternator being slightly above the level of the top flange of the frame. If it werent that high, it would be interfering with the fuel pump for sure.
Yours must use a different bracket than mine. Maybe to be able to support the a.c. compressor?
Best of luck. 



From: denisondc
Sent: 4/5/2006 2:04 PM

And the fuel pump in your picture looks exactly like mine, same with the alternator.



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 4/5/2006 4:39 PM

Yep...the new fuel pump is exactly the same as the one I had...so I installed it, along with a new fuel filter, and then took the new alternator back down to Advanced Auto Parts.  The old guy behind the counter went in the back and found the one that I had turned in as a core charge, and we compared them:  Yep!  The new alternator was a 1/4 inch thicker than the old one!!!  But he knew what he was doing, went in the back, and brought out another alternator, with the same bracket and mounting configurations and wiring setup, that was the exact thickness of the original.

So, he let me take that one (they were the same price) and back to work I went.  It was still a VERY tight fit, and it butts up TIGHT against the fuel filter, but it fits!  I had to loosen the adjustment bracket and move it totally out of the way, and then put the belt on the pulley first, but after some serious finagling, I got the top bracket bolts in place, put the adjustment bracket back in place, and tightened everything down...if that belt was even a HAIR shorter, it would be too tight...but all lines up, the belt deflects on the tight side of specs, and the wiring went right on...but DAMN this thing is tight up against the fuel pump!  Yes Dave, I think because of the AC mount my alternator is lower than yours.

I fired it up, and VROOM!  13.2 volts at idle at both batteries...yay!!!

Voltage dropped to 12.90 at idle once it warmed up, and goes back up to 13+ at higher engine speeds...seems my charging problems are now fixed...yay!!!

I also went ahead and replaced every darn wire in the circuit, and cleaned all my grounds down to bare metal.  It was a good day!

We leave this weekend to go up to the GA Ren Faire, and when we get back down here after 8 weeks, it will be time to tackle my next two big issues:  Leaking valve cover gaskets (the oil dribbles down on the exhaust manifolds...stinky!), and a leak in the exhaust manifold on the driver's side...I think its just where the header flange bolts to the manifold, since one of the bolts/studs is missing/broken...always something, eh?

Thanks again, guys!  I added pics to the Ark album of the battery compartment with the new wiring and solenoid, and pictures of the installed fuel pump and alternator showing how tight the clearances are.

Kev



From: denisondc
Sent: 4/5/2006 4:53 PM

When I took off the original alternator the replacement one I got had smaller diameter pulleys. I had to get belts that were an inch shorter than previously. I figured that with the smaller pulleys, the alternator would be turning about 10,500 rpm if I ever got the engine up to 4000 rpm. That seemed like a safe speed for an alternator.
My original alternator was working fine, I just removed it because it looked so old; 28 years old. Besides, with the radiator out at the time, it made the replacement easy.



From: another1bytesTHEduss
Sent: 4/5/2006 11:39 PM

On the alternator subject do you run the two belt setup,because it looks like one belt would be enough,so why is there two?I have both but one is so loose/ worn it doesn't seem to help.



From: denisondc
Sent: 4/6/2006 5:48 AM

On my Winnie, the two belts go over the water pump pulley and spin the fan, as well as the alternator. I think it takes two belts to be durable enough to turn that big fan year in and year out.
The alternator bracket is what allows belt tensioning, which is probably the real reason the alternator pulley carries both belts.
Mine has a 3rd belt for the power steering pump. There is a 4th groove on the crankshaft pulley, but its unused.



From: Elandan2
Sent: 4/6/2006 3:07 PM

You have to use two new belts that are exactly the same, then they won't slip and you will be able to transmit more power to turn the alternator and it will be able to develop more current.  A railroad locomotive has up to a 6500 horsepower diesel just to turn the main generator to develop the electricity to turn the wheels.  When your alternator is running at maximum output, it seems that I've read that it takes somewhere around 15 horsepower to turn the shaft. Amazing, eh?  Rick



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 4/6/2006 4:36 PM

Hey Dave,

That was one of the things I checked at the parts store before I even left:  Pulley diameter and groove size.  Even though the new alternator has 2 grooves, the alignment of the inner groove, the diameter, and the size, were exactly the same as the one I removed from the Ark.  Ah Dave...don't you know that you ain't supposed to fix it if it ain't broke?...lmao

Kev



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 4/6/2006 4:42 PM

Another,

The reason for two belts is so that if one fails, the other will get you off the highway.

When using 2 belts, always ALWAYS use matched pairs, with no exceptions!

The Ark probably originally had 2 belts, since the water pump/fan pulley has 2 grooves, and the crankshaft pulley has 2 grooves.  The alternator I replaced, the old one, only had one groove on the pulley, so it was probably replaced at some point in history by a previous owner (PO).  I was even thinking of going to a 2 belt setup and buying a matched set of belts, but the new alternator, even though it has 2 grooves on the pulley, has a much closer (and therefore different) spacing between the grooves.  The inner belt would line right up, but the outer belt would be running at an angle...bad JuJu.

I decided to stick with a single belt.  10K miles and a single belt is still going strong.  I do carry an extra, along with an extra power steering belt.  My AC is disconnected, so that belt is something I don't carry.

Kev



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 4/6/2006 4:48 PM

Correction:  My crankshaft pulley has 4 grooves...2 for the alternator/water pump/fan, 1 for the power steering, and one, which on Dave's rig is unused, for the AC compressor.

Kev



From: another1bytesTHEduss
Sent: 4/10/2006 5:29 PM

My Crankshaft pulley only has 3 grooves(no dash A.C)Looking at the alternator/fan belts(2)Looks as though p.o.used one that was too thin.Good thing there is two.I decided to replace both and use the good one for a match at the napa I go to,but the power steering pump runs off the outside groove of the cranshaft pulley(towards the front)So I guess That belt will need to be removed before the other two can come off.
So my question is will the alternator and power sterring pump need to come out and get replaced at this time,or is it much simpler like loosening a couple of bolts to release belt tension.
I don't have any manuels on it and my computer is the slowest one made.I just don't like to screw -up,and I changed a belt on a car and it would act up once in a while and squeal.ErikC



From: denisondc
Sent: 4/11/2006 4:59 PM

Both the alternator and the power steering pump have adjustments - a clamping bolt you loosen. You might also have to loosen the main pivot bolt for them to swing back all the way, so the belts can come off. Its never easy somehow.
You wouldnt need to remove the alternator or power steering pump, just to replace belts; assuming the clamping bolts will loosen, that the alt. and p.s. pump arent worn out otherwise. Still,, if you dont know how old the are, and can afford to replace them now, it would give you a good ten years of peace of mind, knowing of 2 items that were NOT going to give you trouble during a vacation trip.
Another thing to consider while the belts are off already. Is your fan clutch the original one? If so, I would expect it to be feeble. A new one would improve cooling. While belts can break and radiator hoses can suddenly split, the fan clutch weakens imperceptably each year, until the engine cooling at lower speeds - including climing hills-, is not good enough. My plan is to replace the fan clutch each time the radiator is out for cleaning/recoring. And since its easy to reach with the radiator out, I also will replace the alternator and fuel pump and probably the 413 water pump. Along with new belts and radiator hoses of course.