Chevy Steering / Wandering issue

[kennyrodgers]

Hi Folks,
We've managed to get a few short trips away under our belts now but we do seem to have an issue with the front end somewhere.
I can liken the driving experience as somewhat similar to piloting a boat !!
I've checked the previous test history on the vehicle and there are advisories on the last couple about steering play, it was pointed out to me at the recent test I put it through.
We've adjusted the play out of the steering box but she's still a pig to drive. I'm constantly having to add steering input, the slightest puff of wind is a white knuckle moment and going round even soft curves seems to be a series of minor swerves. There's 43000 miles on the coach and she was sat for the last seven years.....if that's an issue.
Any ideas where to start looking first ??
Cheers.

[Rickf1985]

You have two idler arms, one one each frame rail. They are bell crank types and they are famous for developing side play at the bottom of the shaft. There is a large lock nut at the top and on the very top a smaller nut. If you loosen the lock nut you can adjust out any up and down play which will also give some side play but if there is no up and down play and there is side play there is nothing you can do but replace the unit. Alignment is very important on these also, type in "Alignment" in the search box in this section and you should get very good info.

[HandyDan]

I went through all that when I first got my Holiday Rambler.  I had all the symptoms you describe.  When I had the motorhome inspected for the state, the mechanic said the bell cranks were too loose.  He fixed them and made a big improvement, but not enough.  The one thing that made the biggest difference was the air bags in the front springs.  I put new ones in and blew them up to 70 lbs.  The next biggest improvement was new steering shock (the one that goes horizontal and connects to your tie rods).  Now it drives fairly decent, but keep in mind you are driving a big vehicle whose chassis wasn't actually designed to be a motorhome.  It isn't going to drive like a car. 

[kennyrodgers]

Cheers Rick,
I take it you mean the ones that Hendersons Supersteer do a replacement for, the ones with the tapered roller bearing instead of a bushing ?? If so is it worth going Supersteer over stock ?
Hi HandyDan,
I've just replaced the airbags with Firestones but thanks for the suggestion anyway. Front shocks and a steering stabilizer are on the shopping list.

[Rickf1985]

Yes sir, they are the ones. And yes, it is worth it, less hassle and worry about how long the others will last. The roller bearings will last longer than you will.

[Turbodime]

I'm having the same issue.  Back and forth wandering and every truck that passes me is a fight.  It doesn't matter if empty or loaded, it makes no difference.


It has a fresh alignment, new Henderson Bellcrank, new steering gear, new front springs, all new tires, all new shocks and steering dampener.  All steering suspension parts are tight. 


Total miles on rig is 30K and 4500 on new parts.


Im at a loss.  Well almost, only thing left to do is change out sloppy sway-bar bushings. I'll be checking sector shaft adjustment as well.


It does have a Safe Steer package on it as well. 

[Rickf1985]

Alignment?

[Turbodime]

It has a $300 alignment but toe could be off.   It did it before the alignment was done.  I'll have to check it my self.
Off to work on it. 


Thanks

[Rickf1985]

They should have given you a printout with he settings after the alignment was done. I see you mention the new bellcranks and springs, were they done before or after the alignment? Basically the alignment would have had to have been the last thing to be done. I had an alignment done on mine, or what they called an alignment, they blew the airbags up until the camber was in spec and told me the caster was non adjustable and when I said the steering wheel was off center they said to take it off an put it back on centered. Yea, there are places like that out there.

[Turbodime]

All done before alignment. Good reputable shop and yes they gave me a print out.  The steering
wheel was off a around 10° after replacing everything and when it came back from the shop it was straight. 


Steering took a back seat.


Working on replacing main seal now, argh what a job, had to buy an engine hoist to lift the engine.

[Rickf1985]

Couldn't you have jacked up the engine from underneath and put blocks under the mounts?

[kennyrodgers]

Cheers Rick,
I think that'll be my first port of call then, shocks and stabiliser to follow then we'll see how we do.
Turbodime,
I'd be very grateful if you would keep me posted on how you get on with yours.




Anyhoo,
Just had another week away in the old girl.......engine and tranny performing well up to now, pinion seal in and dry as a bone.
We'll keep at her.

[Turbodime]

  Checked toe and found it dead straight and maybe a smidgen negative.  Turned the tie rod sleeves 180°. around 1/16+.
I also took some more play out of the steering gear box. 


Took it for a spin and the wandering was cut in half.   Going to pick up some Energy Suspension grease-able bushings for the sway bar.  The current bushings were trashed.

[kennyrodgers]

Hendersons Bellcrank, Monroe shocks and stabiliser now winging their way to blighty so let's see how we get on with those.
Could you guys give me a few pointers on how to check the toe and what to look for. There's no one near me that will do alignment on this size vehicle.
Thanks in advance.

[Rickf1985]

The alignment spec is 0-1/16 toe in. You can measure it with a tape measure comparing front to back at the highest point you can get on the tire where you can be at the same height on both front and back. Measure side to side for tread edge to tread edge. This is not a real accurate way to do it since the measurement is so minute. If you measure an 1/8"more across the back of the tires then you do the front then you have a 1/16" toe in. That is the max amount. You never want toe out. If you have to make a change then be sure to hold the steering wheel straight and back up about ten feet and pull back forward to your original spot and measure again. The further forward you can go the better so if you have a level parking lot to work in that is great, back across the lot 50 feet and pull back up. This gets the tires loaded back up with the new setting. Keep the steering wheel strait the whole time.

If your steering wheel is crooked going down the road then you will need to get it centered first. This can get involved without the right equipment since it is not as easy as pulling the wheel off and putting it back on straight as was actually told to me by an alignment shop! Variable ratio steering boxes which these vehicles have are only tight when centered and if you pull the wheel and move it you are no longer centered and then you have an additional wandering issue.
You will need to jack up both front wheels enough to take the weight off of them, off the ground is best. Now turn the steering all the way to one side and then turn it all the way to the other lock while counting the EXACT number of turns. Do this a couple times or more so you know exactly how many turns it takes to go from one lock to the other. Now go to one lock or the other and come back halfway, mark the wheel and dashboard with tape at the top so you know where the top of the wheel is and then go to the other lock and come back half way and see if the tape lines up. If it does not then split the difference and remark the top of the wheel. This is dead center of the steering box. Hopefully your steering wheel is centered or very close to it. If it is off by a half turn then someone has probably taken it off and remounted it or there is mechanical damage somewhere under there. I am going to go with the hope it is centered because it is just to complicated to get into all of the possibilities of the other scenarios.
So now,center your wheel where it is dead straight and go underneath and measure from the grease nipple on the right tie rod end over to a central point on the frame, do the same on the other side. If they are different then you will need to make them the same at the same time as the alignment so that your steering wheel is straight is straight going down the road. You can do the preliminary now while it is in the air. Measure your tires front and back and while you are getting them lined up by turning the tie rod sleeves be sure to turn them in an order that brings both grease nipples the same distance from center as yo are getting the measurement you want.

Sure you don't want to find a shop? here is a lot more to this than just turning one wrench. And this is ONLY one of the three adjustments involved n an alignment. You still have caster and camber which you are not going to be able to do without more involved equipment. You can, with a level and strings but believe me, you don't want to get into that method.

[kennyrodgers]

Cheers for that Rick, very comprehensive and must have took you a while to write, it's very much appreciated.
Fortunately the steering wheel is bang on center. The new parts should be here and fitted by the end of the month so I'll get the tape measure out and see how we are.
Cheers for now Buddy.

[Turbodime]

Went with Moog urethane joints. 30min to swap out.  Took it for a drive and the body roll is the same but without the dreaded lean then tighten up due to the sloppy worn bushings.


Wandering has improved some and there is more road noise.  This is due to more ridged urethane mounts then the softer rubber.   



We're taking off Thursday after work and will post my findings to see if it improves once loaded. 


I ran a tape measure from rim to rim at 3:00 and 9:00 to get my "toe" number.  I made a mark on both wheels then turned 180° each and measured the same spot.   I did this just in case I had a bent wheel.


I have a new steering stabilizer in the stock location but also have left over mounts from a Safe-T-Plus.   Im thinking about taking the lay length of the two mounts and installing another stabilizer.


Anyone running two stabilizers?


Good right up Rick.

[Rickf1985]

Thanks. I don't think a second stabilizer will do much, they are mainly there to absorb shock and quick movement types of events. They will not do much for wandering since that is a slow moving occurrence and the shock will not really see it and react. It will put more of a strain on the steering pump in a fast turn of the wheel but I cant picture that ever being a good thing in a Winnebago! N:( So basically I would say go for it and tell us what it does. It can't hurt anything. I would not put it on the urgent to do list though.

[MotorPro]

I do not think a second stabilizer would help but adding a safe t plus helped mine a lot.

[kennyrodgers]

Hey all,
I got the new shocks, stabiliser and hendersons bellcrank fitted yesterday and took her out for a spin today. Massive improvement in every dept and I found I could relax the shoulders and enjoy the drive for once.  No more wandering either which is a massive plus.


on a slightly negative note.....
We mentioned earlier about the steering wheel being centered, well it was but now it ain't  Hm?
She seems to be running straight and not pulling to one side or the other but the wheel is of by about 1/16th of a turn. Hendersons say you should have the alignment done after fitting the bellcrank and I've managed to find a commercial garage that can do it next Monday. Is there anything apart from the toe being out that would cause the wheel to go off after fitting the new bellcrank ??
Thanks in advance guys.

[Rickf1985]

Toe will be the only thing that will change the wheel setting BUT, to do a complete alignment toe is the last thing set after caster and camber. Be SURE to get into the Chevrolet manual on here and get the alignment specs for a motor home since they are different from a P30 truck.

[kennyrodgers]

Cheers Rick,
Just thinking about this with the RV being booked in for alignment next Monday.
I've put new 225's on the front and I'm waiting the arrival of another 4  for the rear....which still sports the old 8r's. As a result she's sitting a little high at the back. I think I'll hold off with the alignment till I get the 4 new boots on the back.


I've got a copy of the motorhome alignment spec in my files but there's also a sheet that came from Hendersons. I've not compared the two yet but I wonder which one to go with if they're different LOL.   W%


Thanks again Buddy,
Pete.

[Rickf1985]

Hendersons will probably reference the RV side of it. One thing to be aware of is ride height, if the front springs are shot that is going to be a big factor in the alignment. There is a dimension for the ride height that has to be taken into consideration when doing the alignment. It is figured into the equation for the front to rear drive angle which has to be added to or subtracted from the caster setting. Then there is the camber setting. If the springs are in good shape and it is sitting at the middle of the control arm travel then you will have consistent camber as you drive. If the springs are sagging and close to the bottom of the scale then when the camber is set at that point you will be bouncing into positive camber a lot as you drive. If you have air bags you can set them to maintain the correct ride height, this is NOT the correct or optimum way of doing things but it can get you by. Be sure to tell the alignment guy what pressure you are running the bags at and why. He may or may not set it like that. It will be a long and tedious job to do so since they will have to be aired down for the actual shim change and then back up again for a new measurement etc.  Also once you drop down to a certain point you will start to get toe change as the suspension goes up and down.

Isn't alignment great?! D:oH! D:oH! D:oH! :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao