Beginning to end, how to approch a full on 1985 454 chevy smog engine tune up

[Getoutdigin]

Hello Folks, great to be apart of this group. I'm already deep into my Project P30 tune up/engine massaging, just like CNCsparky. With his lead and others input, have a clearer view of whats ahead of me.
What I'm asking for is, what I needed before I started my project. To prevent having to go back or wishing I had checked the vacuum and wrote it down or what did the timing look like before tearing the front of the engine off. Does the timing mark jump around? Sometimes we get ahead of our selves causing extra work.
My question is, what would you do, first, and give a brief explanation why, then what next and why and next..... step by step guide sort of all the way to test driving the vehicle. There is a lot one can do in the beginning to expedite the jobs completion by simply following certain steps from the beginning. In my previous life I was a machine builder and can do most things on this MH. One thing I like more then being able to do the job is having all the information I need before I start the job. Which I suspect I fell short of in this instance.
I didn't expect to go this deep into this project until I read CNC's project. Thanks CNCsparky. Glad I did. 
If someone here has the knowledge or experience as to how to methodically approach this level of thoroughness I would bow to them in thanks.
Thanks
Philip

[Rickf1985]

Hello Phillip, I am heading off to bed as I need to be up very early tomorrow but a lot depends on whether you need to keep all of the emissions stuff on there. Where are you located? And no matter what you do the timing should not be jumping around. I will check back in tomorrow afternoon after my eye procedure.

[tmsnyder]

It might help if you express what you have on your hands currently, and what you're hoping to end up with. Does it run right now or is there a connecting rod poking through the side of the block?  What are we working with here? 


Where do you want to end up?  Are you in a state that requires a smog test or requires you to keep the engine as it was when it rolled off the line, or you just prefer to keep all the smog stuff on the engine?  Or are you a non-restrictive state and you want all that stuff gone?


Without knowing where you're at or where you want to go,  for any not well maintained or unknown-maintenanced engine, it's never a bad idea to change all the fluids and filters (tranny too), plugs, wires, cap and rotor, thermostat, and chassis battery with quality parts. Do not put in low quality parts.  When in doubt, get AC Delco Professional, it doesn't cost that much more.   For reliability it would be a good idea to change all the belts and hoses and clamps as well.  That's a baseline 'freshen-up' that won't really cost that much compared to breaking down on the side of the road.

I just went over my 1989 454 as above, de-smog'd it (including the distributor), and it's a night and day difference compared to how it ran when I got it.  When I had wheels and wheelwell shrouds off, I kind of wish that I had changed out everything on the front of the engine except maybe the A/C compressor.  For the money it would have been worth the piece of mind to put in a new fuel pump, water pump, alternator, fan clutch, and especially the power steering pump since this also powers the brake booster.

For you though we need more info.

[Getoutdigin]

Morning Rick, Folks, I live in Ohio, temporarily. Cleveland does not require smog testing.
Hope all goes well at the Doc's.
Here's a bit about the Mh. I bought it last year drove it from Indiana thru Cincy on up to Cleveland. It was a dog running empty up the hills. Unexceptable. I know it's an 1985 smog motor and weights #15,000 empty but, I'm not asking for much, I don't want to cruise at 65 or 70, I'd like to pull up a hill in a respectable way and may be get any increase in MPG along the way. I will not be towing anything.
The MH has a new fan clutch, the carb had been rebuilt, fuel pump and filter replaced. I'll be replacing the water pump and t-stat, power steering pump and hoses, all belts, clamps, hose's vacuum and water, gas line was done by previous owner. I finished the gas line by dropping the gas tank and replacing those hoses too. The Gen has a new gas line already. I've replaced all the stabilizer bushings, front shocks with Bilsteins, (nice) and the rear leaf springs with new heavy duty springs that have an added 1" curve and new shackles. I've also replaced the ignition wires, cap rotor and spark plugs with ACDelco.
This MH is 31 years old and is about to take the journey of it's life time and mine. I want this unit to be reliable and run the best it can, simple by tweeking stock equipment. I'm not into all the bells and whistles and don't have deep pockets so I'll work within those bounds. 
So far.
I pulled the radiator and had it re-cored. There is an electric fan installed. The air pump was making noise and has been removed and I'm keeping the EGR valve and canisters. Don't know if the timing is jumping because I didn't check it first. Couldn't see it to do it.
At this point in the project, I can still check timing and will check it. As I have full access to the front of the motor I will run the motor to confirm. No Radiator's, no WP, no Belts or fan. I'll temporarily bridge the trans lines and engine oil lines and run motor to check mainly because the timing mark on Harmonic Balancer, timing tab and #1 position on cap don't align. Hummm. The Harmonic Balancer ring is suspect, the rubber is in bad shape. A new Balancer is ordered. The MH has 52,000 miles not much considering it's age. I'd like to have a piece of mind knowing that I don't have the old nylon toothed cam gear still in it. I've ordered a gear set with complete gasket set and a one piece oil pan gasket. The one piece oil pan gasket has made the job a pleasure, sort of. I have replaced all the vacuum lines and will move the Distributor vacuum to a manifold port. I have not touched the Distributor, yet, other then to examine it. It's sticky, rusty, lifts up and down a little and the weights have a lot of play on the pins. A full on rebuild, re-curve is in order for the Distributor or if recommended, buy a new one and have it set up. Probably should buy a new Distributor anyways. The Qjet was rebuilt by the previous owners mechanic and seems to be in good order, at this point all I'd like to do with the carb is convert to a manual chock. One thing I will say is I know where to draw the line and tweeking a carb is where I'll draw it. I will be setting the timing advance and have the carb looked at by someone qualified.
Thanks in advance for tips, trick, suggestion and even finger pointing in the right direction.

[Rickf1985]

WOW!!!!! All I can say is you have gone far above what most on here have done! Since you do not live in Ca. you are pretty safe in removing the rest of the emissions equipment. I would leave the vapor canisters also since it is far too involved to get into the lines here and nothing to gain from it. The EGR on the other hand can go if you want to change the timing around which I strongly suggest. Check out this thread here http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,8305.0.html. We can discuss the full procedure for that on that thread so we can keep this one one topic.

With that said what I suggest at this point is a regular tune up with cap, rotor, GOOD wires, plugs ( I prefer Autolites, do not use platinum ). As far as the timing there is a trick to the motor homes, if you look on the drivers side of the balancer about 4:00 you will see another timing marker. You use this one with your light hooked to number 5 plug.    This is how you can time the engine when you do not have access to the top to see the original mark.

[tmsnyder]

New timing gears and chain aren't going to hurt anything, but probably not needed.  Was there a reason to swap those out?

A little up/down play in the distributor is normal.  You can either clean up and use what you have, or swap out the weights and springs so you know what it's doing, same for the vacuum can.

The timing from underneath is measured on the #5 cylinder.  It's never a bad idea to verify TDC with a piston stop to verify that the timing mark is accurate.

I think a new damper is a good idea too.  And change that seal while you're there.

You're taking off the oil pan?  Was the rear main seal leaking? b/c if you have the oil pan off you could change that rear main seal too.

[Rickf1985]

If you are thinking of buying a new distributor, which is a good idea, then you can't get any better than Performance Distributors. You tell them what it is going in and they set it up for that application. drop it in and go. http://performancedistributors.com/shop/

My theory on the rear main is if it ain't broke don't fix it. With only 50 some thousand on it if it is not leaking then it is not likely to for many miles to come. To many little things can go wrong with that job to do it on a perfectly good seal. Clean out the pan and put it back up. Timing gears, yea, replace them, they will go long before the seal.

[Getoutdigin]

Rick, That's what I'm talking about.
I was inclined to believe that keeping EGR had some benefit. I'll add the block off plate onto the list. I do want the advantage of better mileage and if deleting it helps by allowing the change of the timing, I'm on board. I'll read up on that. Seem to remember reading something on that in CNCsparky's thread.
I'll be leaving the vapor canisters like you mentioned.

Yes Rick, you are correct about the timing tag at the 4:00 position. Is that AM or PM? Lol I was going to ask that question. What you said is leading me to rethink my first statement about the timing mark being funny. I'll need to rotate motor till the distributor rotor is pointing to the #5 wire then look at the Harmonic Balancer timing mark to see if it aligns with the tab at the 4:00 position. So far so good. This has told me volumes. So when the engine is running and I'm checking the timing with an induction timing light, I'll need to attach it to the #5 wire too. Got it.  Thanks

Just thought of something, I'll need a timing light with some long leads to hook up to the battery. Just joking. Ha

Tmsnyder, thanks for the info. Like you, I'll feel better knowing that I have done the best I can, while I had the opportunity to do it. I'm this deep in into this project I might as well take the few extra steps needed to do it correctly.
The motor probably doesn't need to timing chain but for $60 got the gear set and gasket set with seal, it was a no brainer. I have an oil leak somewhere around the cover and replacing the timing chain cover gasket would not hurt. The oil pan does have oil leaking from some point not a lot but enough to warrant replacement. I have taken all these things into account when weighing whether or not to do something. I'll be honest, I have never done a rear main seal. If you have some tips/pointers on this topic (Rear Main Seal replacement) I'd be glad to listen to that too.
Thanks in advance
Philip 

Rickf1985, thanks. I'll look that up next. I'm thinking it's a must. My understanding is, a lot can be gained by having the distributor set up correctly.

[Rickf1985]

The purpose of the EGR is to introduce exhaust gas into the intake manifold to dilute the incoming mixture. The purpose of this is to lower the combustion temperature to reduce the oxides of nitrogen. When they started using EGR they realized they needed to advance the timing at the same time as the EGR was coming on to maintain proper combustion so when you eliminate the EGR you could get some pinging and have to back off the timing a few degrees. Since you are going to be changing the timing profile anyway it makes sense to gain back the power lost to the EGR. When you call Performance Distributor you tell them what it is going into and the fact that the emissions are all gone and they will set up the distributor with a advance profile set just for that engine. It will have adjustable vacuum advance so if you ever do have any pinging at cruise speed you just take a hair of advance out of the vacuum advance.

[Bashedit]

Wow! Just found this site while trying to gather information on my "New" 1987 Bounder. I'm recently retired and a friend of mine told me about a freind who had been storing this RV inside for over 20 years since her Dad passed and was considering getting rid of it. So headed to Ohio, wrote a check for 3 grand, stopped and had new rubber put on, checked hoses belts, changed oil and drove her 700+ miles home. I started with the chassis as the air bags were shreds, so replaced the bags, the pivots, shocks and the front brakes. Started on the tune up and wondered about all of the emission items that blocked access to a lot of items. Wish I had found some of this information before I started. Thanks Rick for explaining the operation of the systems.


Now I have to get a jack to lift the rear as I have those air bags, shocks, brake calipers, hoses and pads to replace. Then we can get to the wifes list of redoing the inside once I'm sure the chassis is in solid shape.


I think I might have to start my own thread on this rebuild as it seems like I'm going through everything front to back starting with the chassis!


I guess that at this point I need to find someplace that I can get an EGR blocking plate for this beast.


Ed

[Rickf1985]

Hi Ed and welcome to the site. Those EGR block off plates used to be all over but when I went looking for one a couple months ago I cannot find them anywhere. The fact that these engines are so old the and the DEP has cracked down on the aftermarket for supplying parts to defeat emissions systems (which is illegal) Has meant that they are no longer produced. It is not hard to make your own, it is just a flat piece of 3/16 steel plate in the shape of the original EGR valve. For a gasket use the red high temperature silicone sealer. Do you have the air ride rear suspension? They used a couple different versions of it made by different companies. I have the Jet Ride suspension on mine.

[Bashedit]

I have the Firestone Air Ride Suspension on mine, appears to be just basic air bags out to the air bags. From the instructions provided with the replacement parts it doesn't appear as if they were correctly installed. The passenger side is supposed to be off set but isn't. When going through the chassis manual I didn't see that there were different versions available.

[Rickf1985]

Do you have leaf springs with air bags on them or air bags only?
Here is what I have, No leaf springs, just the bags.

[Bashedit]

I have the leaf springs with air bags, not quite as fancy as that set up.

[CapnDirk]

It seems the block off is available on Ebay.

[Rickf1985]

I will look again but the last time I looked all ads were dead ends.

[CapnDirk]

They may be trying to stay under the radar as the Ebay add says "EGR delete"