Won't start, batteries good, dash has power

[MSN Member]

From: LovelyMUSKOKA1990     
Sent: 3/17/2004

I KNOW THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED A NUMBER OF TIMES,
AND I'VE READ ALL THE INFORMATION PASSED ON BY THE VARIOUS MEMBERS AND FOUND IT VERY HELPFUL BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM I AM HAVING.
IN SEPTEMBER, 2003 WE PURCHASED A '79 BRAVE ON A DODGE CHASSIS WITH A 360.  DROVE IT FROM PREVIOUS OWNERS TO OUR HOME (APPROXIMATELY 1 1/2 HOURS) WITH NO PROBLEMS. FROM SEPTEMBER TO DATE IT'S STORED IN OUR DRIVEWAY AND UNDERGOING INTERIOR RENOVATIONS AND STARTING IT ON A WEEKLY BASIS.
A MONTH AGO, TURNED THE IGNITION AND NOTHING. NO CLICKS, NO NOTHING. CHECKED BATTERIES, FULLY CHARGED. STILL NOTHING.  THIS MODEL HAS THE ON/OFF BATTERY SWITCHES. WHEN I PUT THEM IN THE ON POSITION AND THE IGNITION KEY ON AND ONLY WITH THE IGNITION KEY ON, I GET POWER IN THE CHASSIS (I.E. TURN SIGNALS, WIPERS, ETC.) BUT STILL NO IGNITION.  A FEW DAYS LATER, WENT OUT AGAIN, TURNED IGNITION AND VEHICLE STARTED.  THIS CONTINUED FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS UNTIL THE OTHER DAY.  TURNED ON IGNITION AND ONCE AGAIN, NOTHING. WHAT HAVE I OVERLOOKED AS WE ARE NEW TO THIS. I HAVE ORDERED THE CHASSIS MANUAL FROM BISHKO AND HAVEN'T RECEIVED IT AS YET SO WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE ANY INPUT ON THIS MATTER.
THANKS.
JIM

[MSN Member]

From: Idontcare2   
Sent: 3/19/2004

Jim, I had a similar problem with my Chieftain, Chevy Chassis. As it turned out I had a bad Neutral Safety switch.  The symptoms I experienced were similar to yours and it didn't seem to matter if I was trying to start cold or hot.  It would start 20 times in a row and then crap out.  Some suggest adjusting the switch, which I attempted with no luck.  I put new switch in and the problem had gone away.  Can you get it to start in neutral when its doing its thing? Also, the neutral safety switch activates your back-up lights....if they're not coming on when selector is in reverse it would be a good indicator to look at the NSS.  Hope this helps.
Shawn

[MSN Member]

From: LovelyMUSKOKA1990   
Sent: 3/19/2004

THANKS SHAWN FOR THE INPUT. BASED ON THE INFO THAT I'VE
SEEN ON THE MESSAGE BOARDS I THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE THE
NSS.WHETHER IT'S IN PARK OR NEUTRAL DOESN'T SEEM TO MATTER. LIKE I SAID THIS IS ALL NEW TO ME AND I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL THE HELP. I CAN GET. ORDERED CHASSIS SERVICE MANUAL, HOPING THAT WILL ALSO HELP WITH ANY FUTURE PROBLEMS I MAY ENCOUNTER. THANKS AGAIN.
JIM

[MSN Member]

From: fsd242   
Sent: 6/10/2004

Hi all, I have a question......I am having problems starting my r.v ....I am not getting gas to the carburetor, when I put gas in the carb, it starts fine........I think it may be the fuel pump.....i am afraid of breaking off the bolts to it, so i haven't tried replacing the fuel pump yet....could there be anything else..it did start fine for a couple of starts after I let it sit for a day or two.....like for a week......i would go and start it up, and yesterday it wouldn't turn over........

[Daved27c]

Sent: 6/10/2004

Hi;

What are you driving? We are in the middle of changing the fuel pump on our 72 Chieftain(413).  Had the same problem. Would drive a thousand miles after dumping gas down the carb. This project started off very easy. The parts place(actually) had the part. The old one came out easily(wow). the drive rod didn't slide down. I put the new pump in place. nothing stripped or broke. I was lying under my Winne thinking about how I would tell you guys how easy ONE project was when..... I tried to hook up the fuel line. The output on the pump was not the same thread as the old one. I went to the parts store to buy an adapter. The adapter was the wrong size. I ripped the new pump off the motor to take back to the parts store. An hour of looking and we were finally able to find an adapter(flare to pipe thread, male to female). Went to put this on (the drive rod had slid down to never never land)  used the old heavy grease trick to hold it in place. Then just when I thought I had it licked, I kinked the copper tube off. Anybody have a flaring tool I can borrow? Will try to fix on Saturday. Will post progress, IF I make any. Last time I EVER lay under the Titanic and think a project will be easy!!!! Did I mention It rains EVERY day here?

[denisondc]

Sent: 6/11/2004

fsd242: If it has been years since the carburetor was rebuilt, one of the gaskets - like the one for the accelerator pump on a Holley- could have shriveled in, and now lets the gasoline leak out overnight, where it evaporates. This leak would be hard to see, being under the bottom of the carburetors castings. Or you could have an old fuel rubber hose between the tank and the fuel pump that is letting in air slowly - but works okay when the pump is being driven by the running engine, as opposed to the slower cranking speed. And of course, check that the fuel filter isn't getting clogged.
dave27C: When I first went to get a replacement pump I took the old one with me. They couldn't match it exactly, having no listing for a 413 truck engine, but had one for a 440 pickup motor where the female pipe flare thread was the same for the pump outlet, but faced to the side instead of facing forward. So I figured I would just bend the metal fuel line going to the carb far enough to line up. Ended up putting in a new metal fuel line to the carb - which required pulling the distributor out. When I replaced that pump again ten years later, I took the old pump in, and they matched it with the first pick.

[MSN Member]

From: LookNforTruth2   
Sent: 6/13/2004

Hello, we seem to have had the same problem. So I will post what we did to trouble shoot. First off the thing we noticed was that the power wire to the fuel pump had come undone and needed to be fixed. We then took some carb cleaner and removed the carb and cleaned it. After that we adjusted things and after a few tries she started right up. She runs better now with the carb clean than ever before. I feel silly asking, but did you check all the fuel filters? Even the one by the carb? I certainly have no experience what so ever but thought I would throw this out there just in case. You never know what someone may have forgot to check. We never would have thought our power wire was disconnected and that the carb was that dirty. We had the very same problem of fuel not getting to carb. We also had to play around with the screws to allow the right flow of fuel and she started great!! Good luck and keep us posted!!
Angelique

[MSN Member]

From: fsd242   
Sent: 6/13/2004

             thanks for your replies.......i haven't found any leaks , but yes the vehicle has been sitting for about two years, and it could indeed be the accelerator pump  in the carb.what I did notice was the fuel line to the fuel pump ( mechanical ) is bone dry , as if no gas was getting to the pump. perhaps thus, no gas to the carb.  It did start fine for about a week. then after sitting it wouldn't start one day so i figured it was low on gas. so I put almost five  gallons in. but nothing until I put gas in the carb. Started up fine. the fuel pump is in a very tight place, and I don't want to risk breaking the bolts, my idea is to save on towing by replacing the fuel pump with an electric one., just till I can get to a garage.....could this temporarily fix the problem or is there some sort of gas gremlin , between what seems to be a pretty straightforward shot to the carb and could it be I need more gas?........Has anyone experienced this strange problem and resolved it?....I will wait for replies........thank you again.......

[MSN Member]

From:
Sent: 6/13/2004

Jim,
     I may have an item about your starting problem that was overlooked.  My Winne  would start 90% of the time right off the bat.  The other 10% of the time I would get absolutely nothing out of the ignition, but power to everything else.  This usually happened at the most inopportune times, as the Classic Winnie curse states in the owners manual.  Most of the time after shutting if off while pumping gas, or the best time was at the supermarket about 2 miles from the campground.  Well anyway, it took me over 2 years to find the "deamon" in my ignition.  I had already replaced the starter, starter wire, starter relay, ignition switch, and regrounded my MSD ignition system, when I finally gave up.  So about 2 years later after fiddling with the plug wires on the drivers side of the ignition, the beast would not turn over.  So I started looking around on that side of the engine.  My shifter cable had been resting on one of the wires plugged into the ignition module.  The wire was on the connector, but barely.  So I took it off, cleaned the prong, and put it back on.  It fired right up.  So I took it back off to make sure that is what the problem was, and it wouldn't start.  After 3 years of the mysterious starting curse, I had finally solved the problem.

[MSN Member]

From: Liv42dayOK   
Sent: 6/13/2004

I don't know what engine size you have; I looked in the Member Survey to look it up but, you haven't filled it out!.... shame on you!

Anyway, if you have a 440-3, everything, except the passenger side spark plugs, are in a tight place.  I just replaced my OEM mechanical fuel pump less than a week ago.  I fully expected the same as you did... snapped bolts but, nope, they came out just fine.  I was able to access them quite easily, above the frame, while resting with my back against the front tire.  The pump works off a push-rod that is forced down by the crankshaft when it rotates, pushing on a lever on the pump that looks sort of like a spray bottle trigger, causing the pump to function.  The rod didn't fall all the way down for me either.  It did move downward some but there was plenty of clearance and when I put the new, OEM mechanical pump in, I just made sure I slid it in a downward fashion with the lever right on the bottom edge of the opening.  This was the easiest fix I've had yet on this motor.

     There is also a pressure test you can perform on your pump to see if it is working and providing the proper pressure.  Mine worked fine but had a leak.  When I removed it, I pulled-down on the trigger (it wasn't easy to pull either), and it let loose a nice, forceful spray from the gas that was still in it.  Luckily, I was in rare form and didn't have the opening the fuel comes out of pointed toward my face.

     Price those electric fuel pumps.  The least you can expect to find is a Carter for about $60.  A couple points in favor of the stock, mechanical pump unit are:

1.  If it starts to fail... you'll know ahead of time.  If the electric one goes... you're dead in the water... or on the road far from home with a crew of really unhappy campers and that really drives up the stress level.
2.  The whole thing works mechanically, not electrically.  Chances of a complete mechanical failure are extremely thin.   An electric pump can fail completely at any time.
3.  Here's the best one:   An OEM pump only costs about $24 and you don't have to make any changes in the fuel line routing, connections, or anything!  The whole thing took me 1/2 hour to do, which included scraping off the old gasket and, I'm a mechanical moron!
4.  At $24, I can carry a spare OEM pump in the event of a failure or leak for the price of one electric pump.

Now, remember, this is coming from a guy who spent around $500 for a new Edelbrock Performer carb and Performer intake manifold, MSD Blaster 2 coil, and an insane $64 on spark-plugs!  You'd certainly expect that I would want the best, most reliable fuel pump possible to feed this expensive power up-grade.  The stock pump is inexpensive, provides the correct flow I need and, it's reliable.

If I'm looking at an up-grade, my test question is this:  "Will this component give me the results I want and is the cost worth the benefit?"  Some things sound really impressive but, I could do every bit as well, with an OEM component, without the expense.  Frankly, I think I went way overboard on the spark plugs and could have gotten plugs that would provide sufficient spark power.  However, these are the best plugs for the application and when I go to change them again, I will try another, less expensive type, and I'll know for sure.

     I could get a really good, reliable, electric fuel pump.  But, the results I would get would be the same as the OEM pump and it would cost me at least twice as much. - Sob

[MSN Member]

From: Liv42dayOK   
Sent: 6/13/2004

     I also had the problem with having to pour gas in the carb to get it to start.

     I had a Quadrajet that was nearly identical to the OEM Thermo-Quad and the accelerator pump was the problem.  It should squirt fuel into the ports when you push on the accelerator.  Failure of the diaphram in the accelerator pump on these is the typical problem.  Since yours sat for a couple years, you can bet it dried up and there is no seal around the diaphragm and the chamber so, no squirty gas today, mister!  This is reported to be easy to fix.  I take no responsibility of the actual fact.

     The Thermo-Quads also had plastic floats which would crack over time.  Chances are they are bad, as mine also were.  They can be replaced with brass balls.... er,... bowls.

     Like I said, I am a mechanical moron so, I decided on going with a carb up-grade.  If you are mechanically inclined, repairing the carb shouldn't be too bad and a lot cheaper than getting another carb. - Sob

[MSN Member]

From: Sea Hag   
Sent: 6/15/2004

If you say the pump was dry you might trey removing the feed line and blowing it back to the tank and make sure that there isn't another filter in line some where - sounds like the fuel isn't getting to the pump . - Sea Hag

[DanielTBolger]

There's a P/N on the trans. Three wires ones hot /one for the back up Lights. The other on is for P/N this is grounded when in one of those spots on gear shifter. Dodge had ground problem when they set the spot they ground to motor and fire walls relay and stuff goes nuts in wet weather  the starter relay be were I start cleaning take off and sand were it mount to then neg. cable on the frame and motor see if that helps. Also the voltage Rag. and Electronic Ing. does the same the in wet weather so make sure the mount surfs is rust free ;D