Exhaust manifold source for 413 & 440!

[chip]

Sent: 12/6/2002

thought this might be worth posting. directauto.com has replacement cast iron exhaust manifolds for 413's and 440's @$159 and $189 ea. i also saw big block chevy manifolds there.d

[Graham]

Sent: 4/26/2004

Hi folks,
Just removed the passenger side exhaust manifold which was blowing and found it has a crack in the center from one of the ports. I have called the recommended supplier, DirectAuto.com and they have the new part in stock for US$99.99. 
My questions are:
1.  Do I have the correct 440-3 motor?  The Dodge MH chassis manual shows a rear dump outlet and mine has center dump piping on both sides. VIN number is r39cA3s etc. which the manual says the A means a 440-3 optional engine. The center two "bolts" are threaded tubes which screw onto the head studs.
2.  Is the center dump manifold more prone to cracking?  If so, will a rear dump manifold fit correctly or would that upset the engine's operation?   
3. Is there a tightening sequence to follow on refitting?
4. What causes cracking?
5. Can cracks in cast iron be fixed, welded?
6. Prices in Edmonton, Alberta Canada are between $600-700.  Has anyone used DirectAuto manifolds and does cheaper price equate to porer quality.
7. What is the best/cheapest way to send parts from California to Canada, US Parcel or UPS. I recall getting stung for a brokerage fee from UPS once but can't remember if it was from USA.
8. Does anyone know of an after-market steel pipe header which might be more flexible?
9. How do I check that the head has not warped?
10. Is it worth considering a used part and how do you check it is worth buying?
11. Someone posted a Mr. Gasket copper gasket set number as 7167383.  Is this correct because I have had no luck finding one here.  Are there any other recommended copper gaskets?
12. The connecting flange to the exhaust pipe has a circular ridge which looks like there should be a ring between the two, but there was a flat thin metal gasket? The exhaust pipe side has a separate metal liner at the neck but it is level with the flange not extended as if to fit the ridge.

Sorry to ask so many (dumb??) questions but I don't want to have to do this a second time if I can avoid it.  If I haven't asked ALL the pertinent questions (!), please do advise of anything else I should know/do.

Many thanks and God bless, Graham
PS I used loads of release spray over a couple of days but still one stud came unscrewed.  However, thanks to another lister's advice, I had a bucket ready.  Many thanks - I'm sorry I forget your name.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Sent: 4/26/2004

Hi,
My 77 440-3 MH exhaust manifolds are center dump on the drivers side (with 2 of the threaded tubes) and the passenger side is rear dump (with 3 threaded tubes).
Yes, there are some places that can weld exhaust manifolds. I do have a friend who owns a junk yard close to Niagara Falls Ontario who has said he knows someone around there who can weld exhaust manifolds.
Cracking is caused by thermal stress.  Let your engine cool down at an idle after running it for a few minutes to allow the manifolds to cool down before shutting the engine off.
The correct P/N for the Mr. Gasget copper gaskets is 720-7167.  You can get them on-line from Jegs (http://jegs.com) for $27.99 US plus $8.99 handling.  Not sure if Canada shipping is higher.  You would have to ask them.  Try contacting FEDEX, UPS, etc. regarding shipping regulations from US to Canada.
The 440 exhaust drawings I have seen, show a flat asbestos gadget on the passenger side with no (thats right, no) gasket on the drivers side.  I have had a lot of problems with it not sealing on the drivers side.

Dave

[denisondc]

Sent: 4/27/2004

Congratulations on getting the manifold off - thats a major accomplishment. To check that the head is flat you have to have the mounting surface really clean, and lay a really flat straight edge along the mounting surfaces, looking for a thin slice of light anywhere. I found a carpenters square to be the cleanest and straightest edge that I have.
I would stick with whatever style manifolds you have now. Its a style that has already lasted a long time. Cracking and warping (which is usually why manifold gaskets burn out) can happen if the engine was run too lean. Running lean can happen if there is a vacuum leak, or a carburetor with clogging in its little fuel passages. And of course high speed running makes the manifold hotter.

[Graham]

Sent: 4/30/2004

Well I managed to find a local shop that specializes in welding cast iron and they did a wonderful job for $170 Canadian.

Now my dilemma is:

Should I remove the remaining 5 studs and risk breaking any or,

Chase the threads with a tap and die and then reassemble?

If the latter, does anyone happen (!) to know off hand what the thread sizes are?

Should I use loctite or something better on reassembly?
Many thanks, Graham

PS To replace the stud that unscrewed with the nut, what is the recommended sealer against coolant and what torque?

[denisondc]

Sent: 4/30/2004

Graham; I think the fastener size is 3/8ths-18. That is what I Think the size was for my manifold studs, which are now bolts. The next size larger is 7/16ths-14, which seems pretty big; Im holding the taps up in front of me.
Myself, I would try to remove the remaining studs, to clean up their threaded holes with the tap, and put antiseptic compound on those threads too. Any stud that threads into the cooling jacket, you would put a ring of an RTV silicone gasket compound on the threads, instead of the anti-seize stuff. I would think the stud should be run in with the same torque as the nut that would go on it, plus maybe 5 pounds extra if you like. The service manual says to use 30 ftlbs for the exhaust manifold nuts of a 440. It would be the same value if you use bolts instead of studs. The torque for the manifold nuts on a 413 is 40 ftlbs.
If you are going to re-use studs, it would be a fine idea to get all new ones if you can. But do not let them sell you studs for the flange of the exhaust manifold -- the flange is where the exhaust pipe connects. Those studs are different - having oversize threads on one end! If you look carefully you would just barely see the "fatness" of the threads.
And definitely you should get new nuts to go on the studs, and definitely you should use anti-seize compound on the threads where the nut goes onto the stud. I would avoid using mild steel nuts from the hardware store. Get stainless steel nuts instead, and stainless washers to go under them if it had washers when you dismantled it.
To get the remaining studs out, get the area where they go into the head wet with penetrating oil. I like to tap the stud sideways with a light hammer near its base, to help break the rusty bond there, and let the penetrating oil work for a while - days if you can. I unscrewed mine with vise-grip pliers. If the stud didn't want to unscrew the first day, I just twisted the vise-grips a little, whacked the stud sideways near its base with the light hammer, and would return to it the next day. If I had been planning to put studs back in I would have gone into a parts place that supplies trucks, to try and get the proper length and type of studs.
Then after you have it all assembled, you need to recheck the torque on those nuts, or bolts, after your first vacation, and again about a year after that. To do it you first loosen them about 1/4 turn, then re-torque them. Studs and bolts on exhaust systems get a great deal of stress. Keep us posted - you are doing very well.

[Sea Hag]

Sent: 5/2/2004

Grahm - denisons suggestions on the studs are sound . if you remove the studs  for replacement , you might try heating the area of the head around the stud with a propane torch then spraying some penetrating oil on the stud ( avoiding the head at the base ) to cool it briefly before trying to break them loose - you might also try to install two of the used nuts on the stud to form a lock nut and use a wrench on the nut closest to the head to back it out - be careful to watch and make sure the stud doesn't twist and the threads are moving out of head - Sea Hag

[Graham]

Sent: 5/5/2004

Hi guys, the saga continues.
Firstly, thanks for all the great advice and to Dave for the Mr. Gasket part # for the manifold.  Got one locally for $38C.  Also got the Locktite nickel anti-seize paste and anaerobic with Teflon goop for the studs  that go into the coolant passages.

Now...
My Dodge MH Chassis manual "11-6 Exhaust manifold Installation" reads (1) on the two outboard arm studs...Install conical washers and nuts on studs. (2) Install two screws and conical washers at inner ends of outboard arms.  Install two screws WITHOUT washers on center arm of manifold.
Well...
My manifold has four studs on the outboard arms and "screws that are internally threaded tubes" for the centre two studs and the outer four nuts had flat NOT conical washers about 2mm thick (outer ones also hold the arm for the plug leads)
Question1.
Should I have conical washers and if so, what do they look like?  I assume cones with holes from top to bottom for centring the manifold on the stud??  Are these important and does anyone have dimensions. I intend to fit stainless steel nuts on the studs so should the conical or flat washers also be stainless steel? - Note my MH runs (!) on liquid propane and therefore gets much hotter -so I'm told. I don't know if stainless steel expands/contracts faster or slower than regular steel or cast iron.  I just don't want to go through all this again.
Question2.
The flange gasket I removed was metal and my propane certifiers advise replacing with metal because anything else burns away.  Does anyone have a part number, manufacturer and source for a metal flange gasket that will fit? The bolt holes are about 0.5" id, 3.5" center to center and the pipe hole id is 2" but the previous gasket was a little larger - I think...seems to have got lost!!

Many thanks and God bless, Graham

PS.  When this is over, I'll list all the parts and sources and cost for others who may face the same challenges at some date.

[Graham]

Sent: 5/11/2004

I don't know if my postings are being received but I'll try anyway.

The manifold exhaust leak  (original posting was LP conversion) turns out to be the ears on the front of the casting cracked off.  The manifold had been milled flat and using a carpenter's L-square and feeler gauges, the area around the front two studs is 7 - 8 thou' depressed because I can squeeze the feeler gauge in tightly.  I suppose having the old manifold welded was not too smart when it involves heating and then milling an already thin area around the bolt holes.

An earlier posting on this thread lead to AutoDirect.com which has new manifold with lifetime warranties for $100 and $30 US air mail.  Has anyone dealt with this company and/or have an idea how to personally broker an import to Canada rather than pay an agency fee?  The product I was told is made by EIMIC but I cannot find out any info about them.  AutoDirect rep told me they have been selling this after-market product for 5 years with no returns to date.

If I buy a new manifold will 8 thou' cause it to crack?  The fasteners are only torqued to 20 ft lb which seems minimal pressure on the ear lugs?  A local cylinder head re-builder said they couldn't mill a 440 head because the mating surface is not sufficiently proud of the head. He did say that they always fit a steel gasket combined with a heat shield (which protects the valve cover gaskets from burning away) and no sealant, just metal to metal. He favoured steel over copper because copper does not expand and contract at the same rate as steel and iron.

Am I right in thinking that a new manifold will already be milled flat and be the maximum thickness at the fixing points whereas a used manifold may have been previously milled or may need re-milling which could take me back to square one?

Your replies would be gratefully appreciated.

Many thanks and God bless, Graham

[DanD2Soon]

Sent: 5/12/2004

I've been reading & re-reading this thread trying to let it all soak in as I have to replace our right side manifold on the 2 Soon's 413...

My Motor Home Chassis service manual is #81.370.2073 and only lists 71-72 M-300 through RM-400 with 318's & 413's - So none of what I'm about to mention may apply to your case...

Denison mentioned stud sizes earlier in this thread and I got to looking at the manual trying to find them listed - My manual shows 7/16 - 20 torqued to 40 ft.lbs. for the exhaust manifold studs on both the 318 & 413 for 1971-2. It shows 7/16 - 14 torqued to 50 ft. lbs. for Block Bolts, Alternator Bracket Bolts, and Starter Mounting Bolts.

Again, Don't know if this even applies to your situation, but I sure "Highlighted" the differences in my manual for when I have to tackle it.

Best luck,
DanD

[TrixTret1]

Sent: 7/7/2004

Whatta gr8 site.  I ordered the manifold for the passengers side of my Winnie 440-3 and DirectAuto sent it right away.  $139.00 plus $11.50 s/h.  Super price and they even called the next day to inform me that it would be sent from warehouse in Dallas/Ft.Worth instead of Arizona.  These people really have customer service in mind. 

Thanks for the info.  Manifold will be put on today.  I had to go buy an 11/16th's deep well socket for replacement of my part.  I am so happy.  My Maddiebago has been tuned up and should be ready for my 1st trip in just a few days.

I love CW

Brenda

[Daved27c]

Sent: 11/11/2004

Guys:

I'm bringing up a new question on an old thread. I just removed the exhaust manifold on the passenger side of my 413. It was leaking when we bought it, and we have put over 3500 miles on it. The leak probably started when one of the bolts fell out. Does anyone know where I can find copper gaskets for a 413? I am sure the mating surfaces are not perfect. I can get them very clean, but not totally flat. Also, does anyone know for sure if this originally had studs or bolts? It had bolts when I took it apart. Also are there any bolts that would be better to install? The old bolts had so many barnacles on then that I had to hammer the socket on.


Also:

The manifold has a crack that does not seen to go all the way through, but is quite large. Do you think it will be OK, or should I replace it? See the attached picture. I would rather not spend the $150 for a new one.

Dave

[denisondc]

Sent: 11/12/2004

    I don't know where to get copper exhaust manifold gaskets - the regular kind are what I have on my 413.  Knock-on-wood.
     What I see in your picture is a manifold crack that could be successfully arc-welded; by heating the manifold to about 900 degrees first however.  If you don't get it welded it might last for years, or might not.   If the crack began because your engine was running lean, and it continues to run lean - I predict the crack will enlarge.      And if it still runs too lean when you put a new manifold on, that one might warp or crack in a few years also.    So make sure you have no intake manifold vacuum leaks!
    They would originally have used studs - the expectation being that after a decade or two when you needed to remove them, you could melt the nuts off the stud with an acetlyene torch if they wouldn't unscrew, without breaking off the stud inside the head.
     I used stainless steel bolts from a hardware store, but had to hacksaw and grind them to be about 1/4 shorter.  The hardware store only carried them in 1/2 inch length increments.   I used plenty of anti-seize.   Even so, if no-one touched those bolts for 10 or 20 years, they might break off instead of unscrewing.  But I loosen and re-tighten them about each 2 or 3 years, even putting more anti-seize on the threads if a bolt seems too stiff.  And I have found that some of them either stretch or otherwise loosen, so the re-torquing would be a good idea anyway.
     For the 4 studs on the exhaust manifold flange, where it bolts to the exhaust pipe, I bought new nuts, and put twice as many back on.  I put the first nut on, just like the old one. I put a 2nd nut on each stud, which covers up the threads, and slows down further corrosion.  I used plenty of anti-seize too.
    On Navy equipment, you do not ever use stainless steel nuts on stainless steel studs or bolts, unless you are very specific about the alloys.  Otherwise the two stainless steel items might bond to each other, and not unscrew even with the use of the acetylene torch.   
   I wonder how a bolt falls out of a manifold?

[Daved27c]

Sent: 11/13/2004

Denison;

When I say that the bolt fell out, I am guessing that it did because it is missing. The hole is still there with no broken bolt in it, and the threads are fine. I have a set of regular gaskets for it, but from what I have read here the copper ones are better. I have to special order the gasket between the manifold and the rest of the exhaust before I can reinstall. I'm trying to get this done before any more snow flies.

Dave

[Daved27c]

Sent: 11/28/2004

Guys;

Installed the new manifold gasket last night and I have to say that "silence is bliss". Being able to hear makes a world of difference. Thanks for the help.

Dave

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Sent: 11/29/2004

Typically you can find good prices on exhaust manifolds at the following link:

http://motors.search.ebay.com/Dodge-Motorhome-Motor-home_Parts-Accessories_W0QQfromZR10QQsacategoryZ6028QQsamotorscategorymapZ6028QQsas_partneridZ2QQsatitleZQ28DodgeQ29Q20Q28MotorhomeQ2cQ20MotorQ20homeQ29QQsosortpropertyZ1

I suspect most have a problem believing that your only supposed to use 20ft lbs of torque on the manifold bolts of a 440-3.   The manifolds expand and contract a whole lot do to heat.  I learned the hard way to much torque does not allow the expansion and contracting and results in the manifold cracking at a bolt hole.

Dave

[olivereaman]

Sent: 12/26/2004

Graham, I've had way too much experience with rusted parts on all types of machinery. This isn't a commercial for anything, just what I believe to be good advice that's worked for me when nothing else would. Try using a product called PB Blaster. I was skeptical about its reputation at first, but swear by it now.

I had broken a head-bolt off on a Wisconsin engine on my hay baler and sprayed PB Blaster on it, tapped it with a hammer a few times and removed it with a pair of vise-grips the next day!! That was the first time I used it and I'll tell you, I've found nothing to compare to it.

If those studs are really pesky, spray and tap repeatedly. Also, there are special tools to remove studs. There are different types but generally, they are pounded over the stud and use a gripping action to remove them. Don't break them off, unless your really in a hurry, it's better to go easy and most times they'll come out. If you have a torch, a LITTLE heat will sometimes help to get them started.

[another1bytesTHEduss]

Sent: 12/29/2004

I am about to replace my passenger side exhaust manifold with the 4 bolt holes on the bottom, on a 413 '72 Winnebago. Due to a crack towards the front of it, which has gotten worse, a mechanic was gonna' weld it but instead he gave me a kind of wax thats suppose to loosen the bolts easier.Called paraffin or something. I'm going to see how it goes and let you know.

[olivereaman]

Sent: 12/29/2004

another1bytesTHEduss, Hey, let us know how the stuff works. Also find out if it works for other things too, and where you can get it, if you can. I am always looking for a better way to deal with rusted and corroded parts.

John

[another1bytesTHEduss]

From: another1bytesTHEduss
Sent: 2/16/2006

I replaced mine, too due to a crack which had been welded once before. One good trick to loosen those pesky bolts and nuts is to melt paraffin wax into the threads when engine is warm, let cool then repeat. They all came out fine. Could of reused them even but I went with new Stainless steel. Oh yes directauto was a great source for that part. Hint,
413 passenger side is same as drivers side.-Erik