17: wheels or covers

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: MacD22C  (Original Message)
Sent: 9/6/2006 3:05 PM

I am looking into new wheels, wheel covers/simulators for my 1973 Chieftain.  They are 17" split tims, 5 X 3/4" studs on a 8.00" Bolt Circle. Any leads?
Stripping and power coating may be expensive?
As a last resort "rattle can" paint job.... :-)
Thanks,
John
mccannengr@cox.net

 

From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 9/6/2006 5:55 PM

Just a thought:

IF you have to go the "rattle can" direction, why not use epoxy paint?  It might last longer.  I can't be sure about that, but it sounds promising.

   

From: jbmhotmail
Sent: 9/6/2006 8:46 PM

Check out ebay.
Good luck

 

From: Henry
Sent: 9/7/2006 5:17 AM

First, you need to replace the split rims.  Finding someone to change these tires from a wheel on the road is almost impossible.  You have to use a cage to mount and dismount the tires.  They are also the most dangerous truck wheel on which to mount tires because of the relatively small size, for a truck, and the age of the wheel. 

There was another rim made with the exact same specs but is a one piece tubeless rim.  They are expensive, but would not look bad coated and with center caps and nut covers, which are readily available.  I have these on the rear of an old Champion that I am parting out.  The outside wheels are chrome and inner wheels are argent.  I also have an extra set that are partially blasted.  These came from the front of this motor home.  The front wheels now on this home are the same bolt pattern, but are the Max something wide wheels that are no longer available.  They mount 33x10.5x16.5 tires.  I had them custom made and chrome plated for this coach.  With their wide foot print, they really add to the front end stability.

There is no cheap ride in replacing these 5 lug wheels.  The split rims, with the 33 years of wear are an accident waiting to happen.

Henry 



From: MacD22C 

I am looking into new wheels, wheel covers/simulators for my 1973 Chieftain.  They are 17" split tims, 5 X 3/4" studs on a 8.00" Bolt Circle. Any leads?
Stripping and power coating may be expensive?
As a last resort "rattle can" paint job.... :-)
Thanks,
John
mccannengr@cox.net

 

From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 9/7/2006 5:34 AM

I have to vehemently disagree with Henry...I have the exact same wheels that you do, and while it is hard to get someone to change them, without a safety cage, the beauty of our "split" Budd wheels is that you can change the inner tube yourself on the side of the road!  There is a thread on here about how to do it, and Dave Denison can give you all the pointers and safety tips you need.  I've changed inner tubes myself, and its easy!  You just wrap a safety chain around the tire several times, through the rim holes, when inflating it, and its perfectly safe!

Also, our wheels aren't technically "split", and split rims are dangerous.  Our wheels are "two peice" wheels, with an outer lock ring.  As long as you make sure that outer lock ring is seated all the way, again, they are perfectly safe, reliable, and will last several lifetimes.

I haven't found a source for wheel covers that will fit, although if I find some stainless ones someday, I'll put them on.  In the meantime, I used Rustoleum Professional on my wheels, and a year later, they are still white and clean!  I used a brush, and brushed on three coats.  I painted right over the old paint and rust after knocking away the loose stuff with a wire brush.  And a year later, they still look good!

Kev

 

From: Henry
Sent: 9/7/2006 6:36 AM

There are dress up chrome lug nut covers and center rear axle and front hub covers that make these wheels, and their tubeless replacement look better.  I have some of the rear axle and lug nut covers .  They look like a deep roughly 4" diameter pot about 6" deep.  A flange fits under the wheel center.

Henry



From: ClydesdaleKevin 

I have to vehemently disagree with Henry...I have the exact same wheels that you do, and while it is hard to get someone to change them, without a safety cage, the beauty of our "split" Budd wheels is that you can change the inner tube yourself on the side of the road!  There is a thread on here about how to do it, and Dave Denison can give you all the pointers and safety tips you need.  I've changed inner tubes myself, and its easy!  You just wrap a safety chain around the tire several times, through the rim holes, when inflating it, and its perfectly safe!

Also, our wheels aren't technically "split", and split rims are dangerous.  Our wheels are "two peice" wheels, with an outer lock ring.  As long as you make sure that outer lock ring is seated all the way, again, they are perfectly safe, reliable, and will last several lifetimes.

I haven't found a source for wheel covers that will fit, although if I find some stainless ones someday, I'll put them on.  In the meantime, I used Rustoleum Professional on my wheels, and a year later, they are still white and clean!  I used a brush, and brushed on three coats.  I painted right over the old paint and rust after knocking away the loose stuff with a wire brush.  And a year later, they still look good!

Kev

   

From: denisondc
Sent: 9/7/2006 7:53 AM

Once I took some shiny chrome wheel covers off an RV in a junkyard. There was so much Thick Rust under them that I decided I would leave my wheels out in the air and sunlight. I havent seen any wheel covers that would fit on the 5 Bolt 'Budd' style 17 inch split rims anyway. I also paint mine with white rustoleum, and over the old paint if it survives my wire brush.

   

From: jbmhotmail
Sent: 9/7/2006 10:47 PM

When you have to change your own tire or fix a flat on a split rim, try this: after you assemble the tire and before you inflate it, chain it up and turn it face down, take your hammer and tap the lock ring, you want to hear a "ring" and not a "thunk".
One bad thing about tube type tires is if you get a flat and do not notice it, you stand a good chance of losing the tube and if the tube gets "sucked in" it really heats up fast.
Also try some of the rv salvage yards.
Good luck

   

From: denisondc
Sent: 9/8/2006 4:49 AM

If you want to get new one-piece wheels for the 5 bolt Budd style 17 inch wheels, you might try www.ricksontruck.com, north of Baltimore. He has made up a few sets, and could make up more I believe. Those wheels take 19.5 inch tires, so you would need to buy new tires too.
I dont think the split rims are particularly dangerous, if they havent been damaged, and arent grossly corroded, and are assembled by someone who is Paying Close Attention To What They Are Doing. I inspect mine closely each time I mount or demount a tire on the wheel - which isnt very often. After 14 years of using driving with split rims, I finally had a tire I had to change on a trip. We noticed the tire losing air when we stopped in a rest area in Orange TX; then I put on the spare. It took about 30 minutes of huffing and puffing, on a warm sunny day last November.
I have only asked 3 tire places to deal with my Winnebagos split rims, and each of them did so without comment. Two places were because I had bought new tires there, and they mounted them. The 3rd occasion was because we woke in a campground in Plymouth, Mass, to a flat front tire.
For the tire that went flat in Orange Texas, I replaced that inner tube myself when we got to our destination.
If you need the 7.50-17 light truck tires, you can try your local truck tire place, or www.universaltire.com in Hershy Pa lists them. They have 3 different tires listed, but one of them is for antique cars, not for vintage motorhomes and trucks. It doesnt have the weight carrying capacity, and costs much more because it is a whitewall, and more rare. They also have the correct inner tubes to use with the split rims.
I like my split rims and plan to keep them. If you are changing to the one piece wheels, and live within 500 miles of wherever I happen to be, I would be glad to get the old wheels, just so they dont get scrapped.
And if anyone wants my .pdf document telling how I change my tires on the spit rim wheels (using only hand tools), give me your email address and I can send it to you. Its good exercise.
I see walmart now has the old style air pumps for bicycles. I might buy one of them and see how long it takes to pump up a tube-type motorhome tire. (Pumping up by hand is another procedure that usually wont work with tubeless tires!)

 

From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 9/8/2006 6:29 AM

jbmhotmail,

You are so right!  Both times I had a flat tire, it was on the inner rear duelly...once on the left, once on the right.  Both times, I didn't notice right away, and the inner tube got sucked into the tire and shredded into confetti...fortunately, neither time was the tire itself damaged.

And Dave?  I tried pumping up one of our Budd wheels with an old fashioned bicycle pump...and the one I have is a good one...a Silca, the ones used by professional bike racers...and it took FOREVER!  Actually, after about 45 minutes of pumping and cursing under my breath, a neighbor to the friend's house to where I was saying finally got tired of watching me struggle, and brought over his portable compressor and we finished inflating it.  So, in 45 minutes of steady pumping, I had about 35 psi in the tire...the compressor finished the job in seconds...lol!  Can it be done?  Yep!  Its great exercise...lmao!

Kev

   

From: MacD22C
Sent: 9/9/2006 5:46 PM

Thanks for all the info.  I am going to price: blasting and powercoating; quality "rattle can; and Rickson's Truck wheels.  Price vs. looks vs. quality (not necessarly in that order).

John



From: Champion_titan_1977
Sent: 9/11/2006 2:26 AM

Re:I tried pumping up one of our Budd wheels with an old fashioned bicycle pump...and the one I have is a good one...a Silca, the ones used by professional bike racers...and it took FOREVER!


Kev,

At least you got it to work last year I needed more air in mine on the road and could not find a gas station that had a air compressor that would inflate mine. Well I found a department store and thought I would try a bike hand pump. First one blew apart. Returned it bought another better one. Blew the hose in two on that one. Finally gave up on the hand pumps returned the second one and drove on to next area with more gas stations. Found one there that would handle the tire.

Now I carry a small 120v compressor I bought used, in the rig. I just run my gen. to power it.

Dave 



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 9/11/2006 6:06 AM

I was thinking of doing the same thing, keeping a compressor onboard.  There is a lot of dead space under the bed that is being unused, so if I can find one small enough but with still enough pressure to run tools and inflate tires to 70psi, I'm going to eventually permanantly install one.  I figure I can bolt it down, maybe with rubber mounts, run electric to it, and then install an external hatch to access it.  I can also hang at least a 30' hose in the hatchway, maybe even hang some air tools on hooks.  Wow, how cool would that be?  I could inflate the tires up to pressure anywhere, and maybe even have a good quality air wrench on board with the right size sockets for the Budd lugs...lol!

Its not a high priority though, so for now I still have to finish my rear brakes and put in new holding tanks and plumb them in, etc. etc. etc.....

Kev

   

From: DanD2soon
Sent: 9/20/2006 7:24 PM

John,

This is some advice you didn't ask for, but I feel obligated to add to this thread just because its' title is going to get lots of "hits" in the future as it resides in the message search library...

Whether you go with split rings or one piece "safety" rims is a personal choice we all pretty much have to make, much the same as choosing between bias or radial ply tires.  Appearance-wise, It's really hard to beat a set of clean, white, rims.  And there are any number of "little" ways to dress them up from a narrow pin stripe in a color that matches a body color to chrome lug nut or hub covers;  Trim rings that snap in are even available for some rim sizes.  I noticed a few weeks ago that Dudes "Karma" has some good looking wheel simulators on it - another option if you take care as Dave Denison mentioned not to let the wheels go-to-pot under them.

My Caution to ALL is to STAY AWAY FROM ALUMINUM RIMS!   I have them!  But, If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have done it!   They are beautiful;  They were Expensive; (Rims and new tires $1900)  BUT, without some very specific (and additionally expensive) modifications,  they don't belong on our rigs.  Having already spent the money on the rims, I'm in the process now of making the necessary modifications to run them safely.  I'll try to document that project in a new thread with pictures.  In the meanwhile, knowing that Looks are the only Positive in this formula, imagine the things you could do with the money YOU are NOT going to spend on Aluminum Rims!

Negatives Abound - Because they are nearly twice as thick as our stock rims, precious few lug threads are left to secure them to.  And, the two-piece lug nuts they require instead of coned or flush lug nuts like ours "catch" even fewer of the lug threads because there are no threads in the bottom washer portion of the nut.  Additionally, left hand threaded two-piece lug nuts are a B--ch to find. And so are the left handed replacement lug studs in the lengths needed to safely secure aluminum rims to our hubs.   About a year after we put the rims on, my first lug stud broke and realizing what had caused it, we've kept our speeds down and our trips to about a one hour radius of home since then.  Next year, we're gonna do some travelin'!

DanD

 

From: denisondc
Sent: 9/21/2006 3:44 AM

Dans post reminded me: I visited a gent who had put the shiny aluminum rims (by Alcoa) on his Winnebago. He had also replaced all twenty of the wheel lug 'studs' as part of the change, with longer ones. I noticed this because his wheel nuts were still shiny-new, and he mentioned that they came with the wheels. I didnt look to see if the drivers side lugs were left-hand threaded or not. He had bought 7 new wheels (including a spare). They took 19.5 inch tubeless tires.
I got the seven old split rim wheels that he had taken off. 

   

From: DanD2soon
Sent: 10/20/2006 11:38 PM

This thread has so much good info, I thought it was better to resurrect it than to start another one...   

I've done some re-thinking about the advisability of using aluminum rims since I started the Early M-300 Chassis Rehab project.   I looked up the receipts involved so I could give you good numbers and surprised myself a little with what I found so I'm going to share some thoughts and figures here.

First, a confession - When I converted from OEM Split ring rims & old Bias plies to One piece aluminum rims & Radials, the choice of rims had much more to do with a stubborn desire for "pretty" wheels than anything else.  Nobody I asked was pro-aluminum.  In fact everyone who responded recommended against them - even my trusted tire guy.   I just wouldn't listen - there was no combination of careful research, measured planning or good sense going on - I WANTED them and was not going to be persuaded otherwise. 

This swap occurred about four years ago so the figures are mostly what we paid then.  When you crunch the numbers and consider a couple other variables, a swap to Aluminum rims doesn't need to be unsafe or that much more expensive than a switch to one piece steel rims.  So if new tires and rims are in your plans anyway, here's some food for thought...

Safety - If you're going to aluminum rims you must install longer lug studs - no reasonable alternative - surprise - they're not very expensive.  More labor involved than cost.
Timing - If you're due for brake maintenance or repairs, you'll have the drums off anyway.
Tires - If you need to replace tires,  their cost is a "wash" as you're going to have to buy a set no matter which rims you choose or even if you keep the rims you have.

& Cost

Aluminum rims - The way I did them April 4, 2002
$  759.00    6 - Uniroyal Laredo, All Weather tubeless, size  LT235/85R16/E, load range E and were $126.50 each including valve stems, spin balancing, and state fees.  Times 6.
    270.84    2 - Budd  4 hole 16" steel wheels for my inside duals were $135.42 apiece. (Couldn't see fancy rims hidden back there & getting nasty too)  Times 2.
    658.76    4 - Alcoa 8 hole 16" aluminum wheels were $164.69 apiece. Times 4.
      57.92    32  two-piece 5/8-18 lug nuts (16 RH thread & 16 LH thread) were $57.92 total.
=======
$1746.52    Total

Steel rims - If I'd done them April 4, 2002
$  759.00    6 - Uniroyal Laredo, All Weather tubeless, size  LT235/85R16/E, load range E and were $126.50 each including valve stems, spin balancing, and state fees.  Times 6.
    812.52    6 - Budd  4 hole 16" steel wheels - $135.42 apiece.   Times 6.
      48.00    32  5/8-18 lug nuts (16 RH & 16 LH - in stock locally - Steel wheels need different lug nuts than my OEM rims) $ 1.50 apiece. Times 32.
=======
$1619.52    Total 

Aluminum rims - The way I'd do them today
$  759.00    6 - Uniroyal Laredo, All Weather tubeless, size  LT235/85R16/E, load range E and were $126.50 each including valve stems, spin balancing, and state fees.  Times 6.
    270.84    2 - Budd  4 hole 16" steel wheels for my inside duals were $135.42 apiece. (Still Can't see fancy rims hidden back there getting nasty)  Times 2.
    658.76    4 - Alcoa 8 hole 16" aluminum wheels were $164.69 apiece. Times 4.
      73.28    32  5/8-18 x 3" RH threaded lug studs (special order locally @ $5 each) in stock at Alretta - $2.29 apiece. Times 32.
      57.92    32  two-piece 5/8-18 lug nuts - ALL RH thread.  (in stock, locally) $ 1.81 apiece. Times 32.
=======
$1819.80    Total  - At an additional $200.28 over Steel,  If they're Safe, Pretty and Convenient (All RH threads) - Maybe it is worth doing!

DanD



From: denisondc
Sent: 10/21/2006 4:59 AM

And if any one is going to have surplus 5 bolt 17 inch split rim wheels, from changing to the 5 bolt 19.5 rims - and is within 500 miles of where I am, then I would like to get the old split rims so they dont get scrapped. That is for the 5 bolt 17 inch rims only. I will be in S. Texas all winter, until about the first of May.

   

From: DanD2soon
Sent: 10/21/2006 7:54 AM

Y'know Dave...

I almost put a line in that post about NOT letting the "Tire Guy" keep or dispose of the old rims - I did let him keep the old 8 lug Budd split rings (including the spare) and I've been sorry about it ever since I came to know how "Dear" they are.  I just didn't know any better back then!  (part of the education process that comes with CW membership)  They all had coat after coat of spray paint on them, but only 1 of the 7 had a really beat up & rusty ring groove.

Later,
DanD
 
 

From: DanD2soon
Sent: 10/21/2006 9:15 AM

Sorry Y'all -Another afterthought...

Dave mentioned in #7 of this thread the condition that hubs can get into when hidden under covers.  He's Right!   I intentionally left an additional $106.25 that I spent on Alcoa "Caps"out of the figures in #16 above (Actual 2002 total was $1852.77) because I don't think I'm going to put them back on.    My hub centers had been pretty, clean & white before the swap and were pretty nasty after four years of being hidden under those caps. (Front  &  Rear )   So I'm going to explore some other ideas I have for hub center treatments that will be attractive without covering them up.  Right now, I'm thinking clean white centers with polished or chromed Bearing dust caps and Axle flange nuts.  Waddayathink?
 
   

From: Phåråoh
Sent: 10/21/2006 6:47 PM

I think that sounds sweet.  Another member did that and posted a picture of it.  Looked great.

- Sob

   

From: MacD22C
Sent: 10/22/2006 8:49 AM

  My local sandblaster/paint shop will sand blast and powder coat my 17" Budd wheels most any color for $89 ea. (plus demounting/remounting the tires at my local truck stop).  Sounds like a plan!
John

   

From: LJ-TJ Sent: 10/22/2006 8:50 AM
Where did he post the pictures?

 

From: scorpionbmw99
Sent: 11/17/2006 11:40 PM

I curently have a flat on the L real outer dually tire. No tire shop I have spoke to will even touch it because of the split rim. I'm still calling around to find someone to fix it.
I got lucky last year when I got a flat in Lake Tahoe, local tire shop fixed it but they complained the whole time and charged me accordingly.

I think I will slowly move to one piece wheels as need to I replace tires.

   

From: MacD22C
Sent: 11/19/2006 9:20 AM

Most any truck tire shop has a cage to do them safely.  Acutally they are not a true split - or so I read on the group.
J

   

From: spudboy
Sent: 11/21/2006 7:23 AM

I have Les Schwab Tire ( a NW Chain) work on my 17 5 - bolt Budd wheels all the time.  Denison is right, they are not true splits.  The last time I was in, I had them repair an inside rear flat.  The boot was torn, the patch failed and the result was a tube that was shredded.  Tire was fine.  New boot and tube was about $45, labor free since I bought the tire there with the famous Les Schwab lifetime guarantee.  I have ordered two more tubes as they are not common stock.

The kid did all the work per the method that Denison outlined (a big hammer, pry bar and air compressor and air hammer wrench, no cage) in about 20 minutes.  I asked him several times if he was concerned about the work, and he commented that they do a fair number of farm and construction tires like these every week.

I painted my wheels with epoxy spray paint: black, because I like the 'tough' look.  I touch them up in place once a year.  They hold up fine.

Spudboy