Converter Replacement

[firebug911]

Sent: 12/15/2004

I was wondering what the drawbacks to a large converter were besides the cost.  I am going to have to replace my converter. the battery charging circuit went out) and I have added a lot more electrical load. Electric steps, a750 watt inverter, a larger water-pump,a 3way refrigerator and 2 deep cycle batteries,air compressor for the air-bags and also for horns.  I have already increased the wire size to the current converter because of the voltage drop. That being eliminated, and the need for additional circuits growing. I was making my own electrical panel, with push button circuit breakers for each of the circuits, and was going to purchase a 80 amp converter. The main reason I chose this one (progressive dynamics) is so I can get the charge wizard.  The whole shebang will cost just under 200.00 I think.  I would rather buy the biggest and the best the first time and not have to purchase another one later.  We do quite a bit of dry camping and our 110 volt load is minimal.If I do need 110 volt I can start the smelly old generator(but it scares the fish) to charge the batteries back up quickly.  If anyone was going to do this what would you purchase?   Thanks  ROB

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/15/2004

With just 2 batteries I would think 80 amps is plenty of charge.I would go larger for a few more bucks if I planned more batts, which I would add.4 batts with an inverter should be pretty nice,but with only 750 watt inverter,2 batts, I would think 80amps would be a good combo.Just an opinion.
BooBoo 

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/15/2004

80 amps at 12 volts is quite a large charge,I usually draw about 100 amps or so charging 8  L-16 Trojans with a 200  amp charger(home system).I think you will be hugely happy with the 80 amp charger,they get rave reviews(progressive dynamics) from users of that setup,as I bet you already know.
BooBoo

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/15/2004

Thinking more about this,I bet a 40 amp charger would be more than sufficient.Big difference in charging rates of a 40 amp car alternator and a 40 amp 3 stage charger like the style you are purchasing.The 3 stage will hold max output till you are 80-90% charged(depends on system) as opposed to a car alt. that ramps down charging rate very quickly.Don't know if the progressive algorithm requires a setting on it to match to battery pack,my home one asks how many amps storage,i set that,then it is a 3 stage with proper output in the bulk phase.
Anyhow,you will have one nice system.
BooBoo

[firebug911]

Sent: 12/16/2004

Thanks for the quick answer BooBoo,

The way I have my inverter configured, I have 1 outlet in the front of the coach  and 1 outlet under the counter by the sink these are powered only by the inverter.  These are normally only used when we are travelling down the road.  Kids think they have to have a TV and the Play Station. Sometimes when we are camping and it is raining or something we might watch a DVD or something... I also have a battery isolator to charge all of these batteries when the engine is running... Also I was told that my current setup was a 30 amp output and when I am using several things, including the inverter, my output voltage is only 11.2 volts with 122 volts ac input at the converter. When I turn the inverter off the voltage goes back up where it needs to be, I was figuring that the converter was just not big enough. I have everything running through my converter, so when I'm plugged into shore power or the generator it still works non stop.  Thanks  ROB

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/16/2004

You have your Inverter connected directly to the Converter output?
If thats the case,change it.Inverter should have a direct from the battery connection,I didn't even know you could run an inverter direct off the converter.
Is that what you are saying,if so,get a direct fused line running positve and neg from the batts to the inverter.Thats the only proper way to set up an inverter of 100 watts or more.OT but for future reference,even a 13  inch color tv 12 volt will overheat the wires in the Winny 12 volt outlet,I have a scorched wall to prove it.Those outlets are not for pulling even 10 amps safely.Wires too small.
BTW,the new converter you talk about,get it anyhow,you will love it!Nothing beats a 3 stage for battery charging,they are WAAAYYYY tooo nice!
BooBoo

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/16/2004

Figure each 100 watts of 120 volts you put out through the inverter,you are pulling about 10 amps or more from the battery,running 700 watts through the inverter is about 80 amps or more.Will drawing 80 amps from the batts/converter lower the voltage to 11.2?That part I don't know,how drawing out amps can lower the voltage,but I would think it does r/t how much can the batteries readily give up without a problem.Does anybody here know?
I can tell you this,just 2 batteries is not really very good for an inverter setup that pulls any kind of hard load,4 is really needed.Just tv,game thing 2 would do,but I bet you run out of juice fairly quickly.How low do you take your battery voltage?

I wouldnt run the inverter at all when I have 120 volts hooked up.You lose efficiency at the converter,at the inverter and at the batteries.You could be losing 25 to 50%
of your power with the losses in those 3 items.

Can you clarify some more exactly how you have the inverter hooked up?
BooBoo

[firebug911]

Sent: 12/16/2004

I have the output of my converter going to all of my lights and things. I also have the input of my inverter to 1 circuit of my converter. I don't think I have over 200 watts of load on the inverter at any 1 time.That is why I was considering such a large converter. With a large charger it may not be a problem but with the measly 4.5 amp battery charger that it had, and the inverter on watching tv I would end up running the battery down. ( I orig had it hooked to the battery ) Taking out more than I am replacing.So I hooked it up like that so when we stop for a while and either run the gen. or shore power we don't have to switch all the plugs to shoreline plugs and back when we leave. When the converter is on shoreline it is supplying the 12 volt for the inverter, if we are not on shore-power then the converter passes the voltage 12Vdc from the battery to the inverter. So either way the inverter has a constant supply of 12 volt.  The efficiency standpoint I had never thought of. It has a 6.5 kw gen on-board so I never thought about conserving power, I'll just make more. The inverter I put a 30 amp fuse because of the wire size ahead of it, it came with a 60 amp, but I like my winnie a little on the rare side instead of well done.When I go back I will put a size 4 wire to my converter from my batteries and a size 6 from the converter to the inverter.  Do you think it would better to run the inverter directly to the batteries?  I have the TV in a cabinet and the plug is behind it, all buttoned down for traveling, to change the plug would be a major ordeal every time, 10 min. But I could put a switch and a relay to switch from shore-power to inverter on only those 2 plugs but i was worried about the electronics when I would switch them...    Thanks  ROB

oh and if I dont have enough capacity or my wires are not large enough to support the load it was my understanding that is where the voltage drop is occurring, similar to a brown out... Is my thinking correct?   ( this is my first winnie)

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/17/2004

Right off the top,yes,the inverter needs a direct battery hookup.Look at the wire size chart for the correct size,and remember to figure both the pos and neg length together when figuring wire run total length,and corresponding voltage drop.Don't  use your inverter when you have shore power.A really good inverter has 10% loss,depending on the model and use can be as high as 50%,just inverter loss alone.These would be rules of thumb.I suppose with the new converter that would work how you have it set-up,but it is just so  inefficient I wouldn't just from a purity standpoint.Do get the inverter direct from battery,I have never seen a converter/inverter direct setup anywhere.I think that would be where I would look for that low 11.2 dc voltage problem.
I much prefer your idea of a switch to  change the extra outlets from shore to inverter(your best idea I think),and the inverter direct from battery,with the proper sized wires and  the 60 amp fuse from battery.I think my inverter 1200 watts has 0/0 cables(big around as my thumb) direct to battery  with a 150(100?,200? don't remember and rig isn't here)  amp DC curcuit  breaker,they cost 3x what I paid for the inverter,did mine so I could upgrade to just about any size inverter, cable  wise.I too dont like flimsy wires.
BTW,do you have a receptacle where you plug into genny power,then unplug from that to plug and into shore power ?Its possible you might want to setup where the inverter powers the whole coach,inverter wired into a receptacle to plug coach into(turning off the battery charger from inverter) ,then for shore power unplug from  inverter ,either at that plug or a switching relay if thats what you currently have.Next week I will post some PDF files showing various inverter wiring options if you like.I have a nice few pages from Heart interface showing wiring options.
I just plug my appliance direct to an extension cord from inverter outlet when I want inverted power,so much easier for the amt of inverted power I actually use.
BooBoo

[firebug911]

Sent: 12/17/2004

Thanks Boo

I talked to a guy from vanner today and he suggested going to a larger inverter to power the whole coach, same as you mentioned.  I also might install a relay on those 2 circuits/plugs, so i can switch the power from inverted power to shore power.  I might be able to use a changeover switch similar to the ones for the gen./shore-power setup.  When it senses shore-power it disconnects the gen( in my case the inverter).  That way I can use what I already have minus a few relays... The inverter I have does not have a battery charger built-in and it does not have a 110v. input.  The one from vanner has a 110. input and it automatically switches to a pass through mode when shore-power is present for 5 seconds and turns the battery charger on... The only drawback was that it was 1100.00 +/-.  I would also need another battery, for any reserve at all.  If I had more need for the 110 v power that would be the way to go, but just about everything in there is 12v. with exception of the TV and game console, and possibly a charger or two... So I think I might just get the 60 amp PD converter instead of the 80 amp, add a battery and hook up the inverter direct to the batteries and add a relay to switch the plugs from shore to inverted power and it will also turn the inverter off when it is on shore-power.  Thank you very much for the input. when I get it done I will have to post some pictures of it along with my coach.  My coach is as ugly as a bull dog on the outside, but it is as nice as any on the inside.  I'm from the old school where chrome wont get you home...

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/17/2004

Fine plan Rob.The 60 amp converter should do you just fine I'm sure.I was going  to upgrade my converter too but after I added a couple 75 watt solar panels my coach batteries always are at 100% charge when I use it,so the converter issue became moot,didn't need a charger.BUT,I will get 4  T-105's wired to 12 volt,got my new battery box planned out,just need a welder to make it happen.Pretty close to size currently on Minnie,just a smidgen short and wide so......Those t-105s seem to  be very successful in actual use with inverters of our size.Your new converter/charger would love em!Kinda weighty at 65 pounds each,but true deep cycle.
I agree ,it sure isnt whats outside that matters if the insides arent up to snuff first.Function over looks always works.
A funny story,nephew is all about appearance over function.He bought(ebay) a motorcycle helmet of metal,looks like Darth Vadar.Took his ATV to Glammis,and wrecked,had this big ole gash over his eye,from the UNPADDED really cool looking helmet.Not only didnt protect,it actually hurt him.Toooooo funny,he STILL doesn't get it.
BooBoo

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 12/17/2004

"... The inverter I have does not have a battery charger built-in and it does not have a 110v. input.  The one from vanner has a 110. input and it automatically switches to a pass through mode when shore-power is present for 5 seconds and turns the battery charger on... The only drawback was that it was 1100.00 +/-. "


The inverter I have in MH is as your current one,the one I have at the house is a modified sine wave Heart Freedom 458,its as above,with the 110AC in,pass-through 110 output and automatic switching to batteries when the 110 input is interrupted.The response is so fast that the computer doesn't even flinch when a changeover in modes occurs.I think most switch this quickly.
Rob,I gotta tell  you this inverter technology sure is sweet stuff.Wish I had the spare funds to go crazy on it but other plans must come first.I dream of solar panels everywhere,sine wave inverters, Honda generators,passive solar,house with integral greenhouse,earth sheltered,solar hot water and radiant heating,solar pumped water,it just goes on and on................
But I made a start and its all progressing.That was the key,just starting.All else is modular to  increase.
Enjoy your new wiring and setup,pretty cool playing with it, isn't it?
I JUST LOVE THIS STUFF!(Big surprise, eh SOB?)
BooBoo