Battery drain, bad GFI?

[Perrard1]

Sent: 1/26/2004

I have a 1986 Winnebago Elandan.  My problem started off by having a low battery and I jumped it and had the motorhomw running.  After driving 1 hour, I parked the vehicle, and it would not start again, even after trying to use the Dual Switch override.
Okay, I can deal with that, and when I get through this winter storm I'll have the batteries checked and charging system.

This is where is really gets interesting.  I hooked up outside to 120v, and nothing is happening inside.  After testing the control inside (breakers) there is 120v on the breakers.  DC pannel also seemed to wok if I left the ignition switch on.  BUT, there is no appliances turning on inside.
Today is another cold and nasty day and we get back into the motorhome to test further.  Now the DC is not doing anything inside when I turn on the key.  Everything seems to be very screwy now.  Breaker still has 110v on both sides of the breaker, but again there is not power in the motorhome from the breakers.  This is totally bizarre!  I am not aware of any other switches or breakers after the main motorhome breaker switch.  Any clues?  What are we missing???

Thanks for any input!

[ned]

Sent: 1/27/2004

Look around for any lost or forgotten GFI or other breaker-protected outlets in the coach.  If tripped, that might be the source of the problem.

Good luck!

[Sea Hag]

Sent: 1/27/2004

Try cleaning the battery posts and check to make sure the water level in the batteries is above the plates - also check and clean the battery cable connections at both ends . as well as at the converter .-- Sea Hag

[denisondc]

Sent: 1/27/2004

My wild guess: When you tested for the 110 volts on each side of the breakers, did you use a high impedance tester like a VOM, or did you put a load on it, like with a 100watt bulb. If there is a bad joint or broken wiring strands in the shore power cable, etc. then a high impedance tester could show 110 volts, but it might not light up a 100 watt bulb. Plugging a lamp/heater/hairdryer into an outlet would have the same effect, if you could be sure the item was turned on - then measure for 110volts at the breakers.
Does your RV have an automatic switch that flips it from being powered by the genset, to being powered from the shore cable? If it does I would be suspicious of it, especially in subfreezing weather. Where would such a switch be in the circuit, and does it depend on getting 12v from a battery to operate?
When I get home today I need to climb up a ladder with a hoe and begin scooping snow/ice from my winnys roof, even though I park it tilted slightly. The first thing I will do however is to check the metal skin for being at ground potential. I keep the winny plugged in with a very small heater going in this weather. denison

[Perrard1]

Sent: 1/27/2004

Wow!  Thanks everyone for the quick feedback.

Here's the latest.  I charged the main battery, started the RV up and it's running okay.
I then kicked the battery switch to DUAL and now I have my DC equipment on in the RV (I don't recall having to have it on Dual Mode).

Thinking that maybe something may have switched over with the RV on, I then wired up the RV again to 110 externally.  Still the same story, no internal 110v, yet the post shows 110 on both sides of the breaker (denison - thanks for your idea, have not tried that yet).

So that's my story right now and I'm stickin too it!  More testing to come, and more feedback as well.

On another note, on the circuit board in the RV, I have 3 breakers.  1 is a GFI (the main I believe, and 1 dual 20 amp and a single 20 amp).  Any ideas why I have 3 breakers?

Thanks again!

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 1/27/2004

Do you  have a GFI in the bathroom?If so,make sure its reset and working,sometimes it also controls other outlets.Did you pull those breakers all the way down then push em up firmly?
BooBoo

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 1/27/2004

Do you understand the Dual/mom function?There is a pdf in the tech section that explains it,have to join the site to access it when you get linked to it from the CWM site.
BooBoo

[Perrard1]

Sent: 1/27/2004

I actually have the vehicle manual for the Elandan.  It explains the Dual/Mom function.  I don't see where it explains that while the vehicle is running that you need it on for DC functions.  It does explain that the Mon switch is for starting the RV when there is a drain on the main.

Also it explains that the Dual is for the DC when the vehicle is not hooked up and also is switched on while running if you want to charge the 2 batteries.

[Perrard1]

Sent: 1/27/2004

Forgot to mention, there is no other GFI in the RV.

Only at the control panel.

[Sea Hag]

Sent: 1/27/2004

The MOM is only for start assist - Dual Connects the two batteries together for charging with engine running  you shouldn't have it in dual with shore power hooked up it could damage the engine charging system - the power as you describe in dual position is coming from your engine batt try charging the coach Batt . one of your breakers may be a main .-- Sea Hag

[Daved27c]

Sent: 1/27/2004

I think you may have a couple of problems. First you seem to have a big 12 volt draw somewhere in your rig. Check that everything is off. Next, if you had no 12 Volt power until you had the rig running and switched to the "duel" setting than your house battery is dead. It was not putting out any power until you put some into it. Also it sounds like your power converter is not working. The converter gives power to the 12 v systems while plugged in. I'm told that the converter on your rig may actually recharge your batteries while plugged in. ( mine is too old to have that function). All of these problems may be because you are not getting 110 volt to the converter. You mention that you have power on both sides of the breakers. Is there an outlet close to the panel box that you can see the entire wire run to? If there is, and it has no power than the problem may be in the panel box. However I suspect that the problem involves the converter. You may have blown a fuse when you jumped the battery.

Hope this helps

Dave

[denisondc]

Sent: 1/28/2004

Your RV probably has some scheme for switching between genset or shore power, but I am convinced it does have some physical item to ensure this, or did have when manufactured.
On my 72 there are: a double-pair of breakers, linked so one set is on when the other set is off. You have to manually switch the 4 of them. (That is how my rig ensures I am connected either to the shore power, or to the genset, but never-ever to both at once.) In the same panel there is a breaker for the roof a.c., another for the 110V outlets and fridge, a third for the converter that supplies 12 Volts to the interior lights, furnace and stove fan.
When the 12V converter has 110V to it, the coach battery is not needed, and is disconnected by a switch-relay hidden deep inside the converter; and which I had to find and fix once when it wouldnt switch back! denison

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 1/28/2004

On the 12 volt side here are a couple Elandan specific scans.About diodes and charging.
Another 12 volt thing,the automotive style fuses should be cleaned with emory cloth,along with the fuse holders,these things can and do corrode and create all  sorts of headaches.
About the 120 problem.Does anything change when you are on genny power compared to shore power?Does your Elandan do an auto connect of genny when turned on,then automatically switch back to shore power when turned off,I think thats whats Denison is asking about?Or do you plug the main power cord into  the genny receptacle,or the shore power receptacle to power the rig?
I think before you go further you need to know if you can pull both Volts and Amps from your circuit breakers directly.
If you have 120 on both sides of fuses,you need to trace the power out from the fuses and find the place where the power stops.Apparently  the whole rig is GFI protected from the GFI breaker,which seems logical.Do you have power on both sides of the GFI breaker?These GFI are a terrible bugaboo when they aren't working.And if power isnt going to the rig outlets,but its coming in to the control panel,I would suspect the GFI is where its being stopped.Do as Denison said,get a load on the circuit and see if it works coming out of the breakers(Esp. that GFI),directly from it.If power works there you know to trace further.
BooBoo

[ned]

Sent: 1/28/2004

What level of knowledge do you have about the electrical systems?  Do you know the Power Converter in your coach (like, where it is, is it working (fan noise inside, 12V power at the feed to 12V wiring,does it have a battery charger built in, can it run 12V lighting AND charge at the same time, what model is it, ...).  I'll work through that with you, but I don't want to write an encyclopedia when all you're looking for is a cheat sheet :^)

Also, if you have 120V main breaker power to the 120V breaker bus, you still need to verify the breakers that distribute 120V to your microwave, outlets, etc.  Have you reset them and looked for 120 on the load side?

The Dual switch brings the coach battery into the alternator charging circuit too.  If you need to be in Dual to get DC house functions in the coach, I believe that tells you that you're not getting any power from the coach battery (usually a big hurking 200 AH trucker thang).

Denison mentioned the relay in the power converter--the one I know of (in my '84) disconnects the battery (also battery charger, a puny little maintenance charge is all it gives anyway) when there's other 12V loads on the 12V output from the power converter.  Power Converter makes 12V out of 120 from genset or 30/50Amp shore power.  Power converter has a ceramic resistor if it has a battery charger, this resistor can overheat and fail and you won't be charging your coach battery.

Hmmm.  If your only coach DC power comes from start battery/alternator when you're in Dual mode?  Check the power converter resistor.  The typical; power converter (i.e., Magnatek 6300) sits directly under the breaker panel, in a ventilated space.  You can often hear the resistor-cooling fan running if it is working.  Unscrew the cover, and WATCH OUT, it has live 120 from the breakers in it.  Unplug all 120 from the coach, let converter cool down, blow huge clouds of dust out of it with canned air, test the resistor.  AND/OR also turn off everything 12 & 120V, and then test the house battery voltage across the batt's (+/-) terminals.  Then plug in to shore power or run generator, leave everything OFF in the coach, and re-test house battery voltage again.  If no difference in voltage readings from first test, then likely you don't have a working charger in the circuit.  So your house batt's dead and you can only run DC loads off the alternator or start.  Sounds like the Power Converter to me.  Lots of options for replacing it, let me know if that's what you're interested in.

--Ned

[captainpine]

Sent: 1/31/2004

It sounds to me like you have lost the neutral, (the current caring return thats usually tied to ground and should be at ground voltage ((o or near)). Thats the white wire. Its job is to carry the current safely back to the box. You may measure voltage at both sides of the breakers, but if there is not a return path back to your breaker box, it goes nowhere and nothing happens. Your power cord and the receptacle it is plugged into are the likely suspects. Way to prove it is simple Plug a lamp into the recpt your power cord is in(the same one, not the other one) if it lights=ok. Plug the lamp into the end of your power cord(may require an adapter available at RV store) if it lites= OK if not power cord  is bad. If it lites and the recpts in the motor home don't, the male plug on the motor home may be bad.. Keep me informed . regards-John W

[captainpine]

Sent: 1/31/2004

One further thought, like I think dennison said, make sure the main breaker in your power panel is switched from generator and is on shore (house) power. On mine, generator is down, shore power is up. Should be labeled. regards

[Perrard1]

Sent: 2/3/2004

Okay, here's the latest....

It would appear that the GFCI is bad, went out and bought a new one today and will replace it.  Will give feed back as soon as I get it installed.

My question now is WHY do I have to have a GFCI breaker at the main control panel?  It seems to be overly sensitive if it can blow that easy(Previous owner told me he had to replace it as well).  Would it not be better to place GFCI's at the receptacle locations next to water sources? And have a standard 20 amp breaker at the control box?

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 2/3/2004

Have heard Leviton is the best GFCI made,and some inverters will only operate with this brand.Its what I used on my freedom 458 inverter and it does work flawlessly,available at true value hardware for one.
BooBoo

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 2/3/2004

Using a GFCI at the breaker box is a cheaper way to protect all the outlets with just one breaker,instead of individual wall plug GFCI at individual  sites.Just saving a buck,and getting more protection in the bargain.BTW,my 1979 only has 1 GFCI in the bathroom.Hope its what your problem was.
BooBoo

[ned]

Sent: 2/4/2004

Breakers do go bad, but you kinda expect them to last a while. There must be variables, like how many times it has cycled on/off, or how much power gets drawn through it (heat of resistance might wear it out?).  The Leviton web site says that surges and corrosion can compromise GFCI and in 2003 the UL GFCI certification standards got tougher.  Anyway, maybe it got spiked by local lightning or wind whipping the utility wires around, while plugged in?  Check with the manufacturer (they probably have a web site w/customer service email address).

My 1984 Chieftain doesn't have GFI breakers anywhere.  Was it factory spec on your Elandan? In any case, GFI makes sense in an environment like MH where wires can get jostled around and damaged or come undone.  There's a thread elsewhere in CW about a <BLINK>short circuit</BLINK> that electrified the motorhome shell when it rained.  Fwuh, the thought makes me shudder.