Illinois Emission Tests, Are they headers or exhaust manifolds?

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: plaino bob  (Original Message)
Sent: 11/10/2005 9:35 PM

hi to all ,
      I recieved a notice to get the old gal tested for emisions. anyone in il. that has had to do this ? what do I have to look forward to    I do have a leaky manifold  on the 1977 440 --hard to hide lol.
bob



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 11/12/2005 6:22 PM

Here's a link to the requirements for emission testing in Il.  Unfortunately, your's is not exempt, unless you can get it a classic registration.

http://www.epa.state.il.us/air/vim/enhanced-testing.html

- Sob



From: DampDude007
Sent: 11/13/2005 9:38 AM

Wow,I have not seen one of those letters since I moved out of Cook County, I did not know Illinois still did the test. Let me know how that works out,are you up in northeren Illinois?? I am down by Bloomington. I think I got a letter a long time ago on another beast I had and they let you opt out if you lived to far from a testing station.

You used to have to take your cars and get them tested all the time in Chicago,is was pretty bogus,it took about 15 seconds and cost you $40, they just want your money.

Dude



From: plaino bob
Sent: 11/14/2005 8:26 AM

     thanks sob the link was helpfull

     dude --yes every car you put plates on here has to be tested I think every 2 years although i was very suprized to get a notice to have  the old girl tested , because of her age (1977) but 1986 and back are  not tested ? it doesnt cost anything to have tested because it is ran by the state unless it doesnt pass -- ThEN its a money maker for some lucky repair place !
    I need to have some headers put on the old gal ---440 (77) anyone  recomend a type of header and would you go with dual pipes or stay with single ? anyone want to do the work for me lol           
         bob



From: plaino bob
Sent: 11/14/2005 8:28 AM

opps I ment to say 1968 and back



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 11/15/2005 10:41 AM

You can still buy stock exhaust headers
http://motors.search.ebay.com/Dodge-Motorhome-motor-home_Parts-Accessories_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQsacatZ6028QQsamcmZ6028QQsatitleZQ28DodgeQ29Q20Q28MotorhomeQ2cQ20motorQ20homeQ29QQstatusZMetaEndSort

77 440-3 has an EGR valve.  My understanding from west coast folks is that the amplifier for it can be troublesome during an emissions test.

Dave



From: plaino bob
Sent: 11/16/2005 10:22 AM

thanks dave ,
       not to sure about what model #s to buy I would like to go with headers to make more room for new valve covers and to reduce heat on valve cover gaskits . but before i buy anything I guess i should pull old one that is leaking to see just why i have a leak . I also dont want togo through gaskits every 600  miles . I do believe in a cool down running period be for i shut her down but will this also apply to headers >? winter is setting in now and the old gal is parked for the winter and now is the time for research research research , thanks for your feadback dave .         
                                                         bob



From: plaino bob
Sent: 11/16/2005 10:25 AM

feedback   I really should do spell check lol



From: DampDude007
Sent: 11/16/2005 1:13 PM

Oh,Yea it is coming back to me,the test was free if you did not test the fine was $40..ha ha



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 11/17/2005 9:53 PM

First, let's distinguish between the original exhaust manifolds and after-market headers.  The originals can be gotten through the link Dave provided.  (I'm only talking about class A model motor homes here, I do not know to what extent some of the info applies to class Cs but, much of it does).

Aftermarket headers?.... Well, if ever there were a can of worms for 440 application, this is it.  Not just here, but on other sites as well.  In fact, on one site, it was practically a knock-down, drag-out war.

I considered this myself a year or so ago.  Read all I could on it, everywhere I could find info.  Here's the synopsis based on actual users testimonies, not what people read from sales bull**t, I mean.... brochures :

1.  You need to be sure to get the proper header for off-idle to 3,000 rpm.  Most are made for the 3,000 - 5,000 rpm range, so you get no kick from the champagne at the low end, where we need it most and... If you ever see 5,000 rpm in your Winnie... unless you are on I-40, it will likely be the last thing you see.

2.  HEAT!  People have proudly bragged that they put on shiny, chrome headers and that they just sound awesome!  Shortly thereafter, they post that they have vapor lock, melted chasis wires, and melted plug wires, along with damaged fule pumps, belts and alternators.  One member here on CWM even said they looked at their engine while driving it and the headers were glowing bright red.  Very, very bad and dangerous news.  Take a look how closely your fuel line run to the headers!  The headers would need to be heat wrapped, at a minimum (which voids any warranty on most headers) and multiple heat shields installed, which complicates working on the lower areas of the engine.  Which leads to the next point...

3.  Space:  Unlike the 318 which allows you plenty of room to easily reach just about anything you need to from above the engine, like the distributor, the valve cover bolts and spark plugs, most things on the 440 are a tight squeeze at best because the 440 is such a huge beast of an engine and a lot of things you have to do from underneath... or from above and below.... like the valve cover bolts... or blindly from above which will invariably end up with at least 2 or more trips below to retrieve your wrench and dropped bolts anyway.  This also decreases air flow around the engine... more heat. 

Also, the spark plugs are located under the exhaust manifolds.  The passenger side plugs aren't too bad to get at... if your my size and can squeeze into the wheel well without taking off the front wheel.  But the driver's side... any way you cut it... they are a pain!  Add aftermarket headers and it may be very likely that you will have to take them off completely to get at the plugs... I don't even want to think about that.

4.  Power/performance:  Here's what shelling-out your hard-earned cash is hoping to accomplish.  High rpm headers can provide a good boost to power... at high rpm.  Low rpm headers will get you from 5 to 10 hp more...  forget any claims to anything more.  I've seen no user data proving anything higher... only the places selling the stuff.  The testimonies were much the same as people who installed MSD6 ignition systems... they paid aroun $150 for it, went through the hassle of installing it, and observed no apparent improvement in performance.   

The same goes for increased gas mileage.  If there is any, it must be hidden because no one has been able to assess any definable decrease in consumption because they added headers.

So, after reading and tracking the proven pros and cons based on user experiences with headers on a 440?  I opted out.  I read a lot of pros that read something like this... "Well, I know a guy who's an expert and he says that headers are the schee-itt~!"  But no personal confirmation from actual use by themselves.

The cons came from people who spent the bucks and went through the contortions of removing the old manifolds and installing the headers, or paid to have that done too.  In short, I read this:  a lot of disappointments, and some real nightmare stories... mostly due to the blazing heat headers will emit because they aren't on some comparably light muscle car... they are on 6 ton or more road monsters under constant, heavy demand.

Bottom line:  definitely not worth the money or hassle and, if improperly installed without all necessary heat insulation, can cause severe damage to the engine components and accessories, wiring, fuel lines and possibly a fatal fire... there was one instance of this recorded in my readings.  Luckily, the fire was fatal only to the rig.  But, it could certainly have been worse. 

Headers on a 318 however, fared better overall because of the enigine's smaller size and configuration.  However, this benefit came only in not affecting the ability to work on the engine as much.  The heat was still and issue, the power increase was only minimally noticeable... if at all, mileage may have improved in some cases, and the users were still disappointed.

Again, this is not my personal evaluation!  This is what I have read from numerous posts on a few other forums and other resources I have long since chucked from my reference material... along with the idea of putting headers on my 440.

Aside from this, there are other, safer, maintenance friendly upgrades which can, together, improve performance. 

And with that, I will say this... Dave Denison has long been a proponent of a well tuned, well taken care-of stock engine.  He says that they will perform quite adequately if this is the case.  I had the privelage of driving his rig... I can only submit this one simple statement from the experience... he is absolutely right.

You can find more Discussions on "headers" here on CWM using the Message Search.

- Sob



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 11/17/2005 10:16 PM

Oh, yes.... more room for valve covers.  You won't gain any from changing to headers.  The stock manfolds don't interfere with installing new, differently shaped valve covers.  I, and several other members, have installed a few other types of valve covers with no problems or modifications needed. 

600 mile warranty gaskets... The heat from after market-headers will negatively affect the gaskets more than the OEM manifolds will.  If you are going through gaskets every 600 miles, you have a problem for sure, but it's not inherent to having OEM exhaust manifolds.  It wouldn't have taken very long at all before Winnebago would have had thousands of very teed-off new owners crawling down their necks if it were.  A cracked or leaking manifold that is releasing the heat directly from the ports up to the gasket area, well, yes... that would make sense as a probable cause.  But, there may be more possibilities and I'll leave that up to the folks who really know their stuff to point them out.

If you had after-market headers, it would still be adivsable to take time to cool-down the motor even though, as I understand it, the headers do reduce the heat at the heads; the rest of the motor has been under heavy load too and I usually run it and watch the temp guage until it has dropped to the low end of it's operating range.

I'll shut up now.