Water pump pulley removal?

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: ClydesdaleKevin  (Original Message)
Sent: 7/26/2005 8:08 PM

Hey guys!

It was a fun day in 90 degree humidity removing my radiator so I could get it recored.  Even with the body mods I made when I was fixing the Ark, it was STILL a pain in the arse getting the radiator out!  Who the heck designed the mounts and supports for this thing?  The first chore was getting the sheetmetal air deflectors out of the way...they are wedged in TIGHT on the Ark.  I ended up having to bend them to remove them.  The bolts were easy to get to, but then came the fun of disconnecting the lower hose!  grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...It looks like a relatively new hose, but it was a BEAR getting in there under the frame crossmember to loosen the clamp, and then to get it off the radiator boss!  Transmission hoses weren't too bad.  Upper hose was easy...lots of access through the doghouse on the Ark...not a problem at all.

THEN the fun started!  Everything was disconnected...yay!  Time to simply move the radiator forward, and drop it down...yeah right!  Its a DAMN tight fit between the upright supports!  The lower part of the radiator was seemingly the simple part...NOT!  The ears that are soldered to the radiator are BEHIND the upright support straps!  After HOURS of trying to figure it out like a chinese puzzle, I finally broke out the hammer and whaled on the upright support straps, pounding them flat...THEN the radiator came right out by moving it forward and down...Getting it back in won't be hard, but unbending the uprights and lining up the holes is gonna have me saying words my mom wouldn't wanna hear...lol.

Anyhow, here's my question:

Since the front lower body panel is removed, and since the radiator is out, I now have LOTS of room and access to replace the belts and water pump and fan clutch.

Getting the fan clutch off the fan is easy, and removing the fan seems simple enough.  Getting to the water pump is where I'm stumped!  I read and reread the service manual, and it doesn't say HOW to get to the pump!  Its behind a big two groove bell shaped pulley.  How do I remove the pulley to get to the pump?  Do I need a big gear puller?  Do they make something special for pulleys similar to a gear puller?  Anyone ever do this before, and have an idea what tools I'll need to buy?

Also, one last question:  The upper and lower radiator hoses look new, and I didn't damage them removing the radiator.  Should I replace them, or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Thanks!

Kev



From: denison
Sent: 7/26/2005 9:02 PM

If you go to the Pictures, and maybe on the new CW site denison will have his pictures, and look in my photo album on its second page, you can (sort of) see the front of the water pump housing, sitting on a bench in the yard. The water pump is still in the housing. It is in the picture called "2 thermostats and a jury rig". On mine, once you have the fan clutch unbolted from the dual belt pulley, you also have that pulley unbolted from the hub on the end of the water pump shaft. It might take some gentle persuasion to come off, being a snug fit. The snug fit is vital, to keep the fan clutch and fan REALLY centered. Otherwise the water pump bearings wouldn’t hold up long. The fan itself only bolts to the fan clutch.
In the picture a wooden board is holding the water pump housing up, being propped against the hub on the front of the water pump. You can see 2 of the 5 bolts that hold the water pump into the housing. One is rusty, the other one is shiny. I think one of the bolts also holds the tensioning bracket for the alternator.
I would like to know the diameter of the end of the water pump shaft too, if you would please measure it.
The only thing you should need a puller for; is if you were going to take the water pump apart to put in new bearings. That’s what I did to mine. It uses two of the same bearings as the front bearing on the alternator. If you get a new pump, I would like to buy your old one by the way.
About rad. hose replacement:
The bottom hose gets less stress, as it sees cooler water, so you could probably reuse it. I would replace the top house though, if you can find a replacement. Take a digital photo of both hoses, and start looking for replacements. If you don’t need them this summer, you will still need them in the future. I know when my rad. hoses were new, in the fall of 2002. I already have a extra hose to replace the top one someday. .I got mine from an online seller of NOS mopar OEM items.
I agree it is a grim chore to undo that bottom hose from the radiator, if only because there is Always some more coolant to run down into your face. On mine that hose runs right against the oil filter, so I remove the oil filter first.
You can see a pix of the radiator from my 72 M400, and maybe tell me if yours is/was the same.
There is also a pix of the front of the 413 with the water pump housing removed. There are 6 holes that the pump mates to, one on each head, and two on each side of the block! This is different from the 440-3s. If you remove the water pump housing, be sure you get the correct gasket set to reinstall it. If you cant, you can slice out a useable set of gaskets from heavy gasket paper. Try to keep track of which bolts come from which hole, as they are of about 3 different lengths. And one or two of the bolts will need to have gasket maker RTV on the threads when you put them back,as they go into the water jacket that is in the water pump housing.
In order to glide the water pump housing back on, while keeping the gaskets in place, I got 4 long machine bolts, about 7 inches long, and sawed the hex heads off. I screwed them into the front of the block, and use them as my guide to slide the water pump housing back on.

Replace the power steering belt too?



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 7/26/2005 10:41 PM

Thanks Denison!

I have the new water pump in a box outside waiting to be installed, along with the new fan clutch waiting to be installed.  I'll post the part numbers tomorrow.  I'll take some pictures of the process so everyone else can benefit from it.

I'll also measure the shaft for you when I work on it tomorrow.  I got as far as taking the radiator out today, and that's it.  I still have to remove the fan and fan clutch, and then of course the pulley and then the water pump.  The new pump LOOKS exactly like the old one, and even has a new grease fitting...five holes, and comes with a gasket.  I'm not going to remove the big section of housing that the hoses attach to like you did, not if I can help it...lol.  If it ain't broke...

So...you are saying its not hard to separate the pulley from the water pump shaft?  I thought I'd have to use some sort of puller.  Yours came right off?  Did you have to tap at it or pry at it?

I'm going to do so anyway, but should I use RTV on both sides of the new gasket, and also on the five bolts that hold it all on?

From your pictures, we have the EXACT same engine, and the EXACT same water pump (already put the skirted Summit 165 degree thermostat in).  Also from your pictures, we have ALMOST the exact same radiator.  It looks almost the same:  Your hose connections, your tranny hose connections, even the filler "hose" on the front...it looks almost the same.  The difference is the mounts.  Yours seems to have only the one horizontal rubber washered mount on the bottom.  Mine has a pair on the bottom, AND the top, and they are verticle.  That is why I had such a bear of a time getting the radiator out...the "ears" are behind the upright supports.  I had to hammer the upright supports flat to get the radiator past them.  I'll post the pics and descriptions tomorrow.

As far as selling the old pump...I'm debating as to whether I should keep it as a spare or not.  I'm going to compare it to the new one, and if the workmanship of the new one is comparable to the old one, then I'll just give it to you at the upcoming Jam.  After all the help you've given me, I'll be darned if I charge you a penny for a used water pump...lmao.

I'm going to replace ALL the belts while the radiator is out, power steering belt included, and ESPECIALLY.  That is the only belt that is loose, and the adjustment is at its maximum.  Any idea what the part number for it is?  I'll bring it with me, but was just wondering if you knew it offhand.

Here's my last question for y'all though:  Is the transmission cooler in the radiator tank efficient enough to keep the 727 transmission cool?  I'm bringing the radiator to the shop in the morning to have it recored...I asked the radiator shop, and they said it should be fine, since its in the lower tank.  I've noticed that some of you, Denison included with his nifty chart, mentioned that the cooler you keep the tranny, the longer it lasts.  Is an external mounted cooler more efficient?  I can have them seal off or remove/bypass the tranny cooler if I want to go with an external model.  I'm just wondering what's the best way to keep the tranny cool.

Ok ok...another "last" question:  2 row vs. 3 row.  The shop said that if my radiator is 2 row, they can up it to 3 row at not much extra in cost.  Is three row a lot better than 2?  How can I tell how many rows my radiator has now?

Thanks!!!

KevFrom:



From: denison
Sent: 7/27/2005 11:27 AM

If the end of your water pump shaft isnt corroded, the pulley would just slide off, perhaps with some wiggling. If there is corrosion there, it will mean you have to pull harder, or use fine emery cloth and remove the corrosion.
I had bought a new water pump that seemed identical, 5 bolts, grease fitting and all. But it had a thicker main shaft, being 3/4 inch. I wasn’t able to use it. I would have had to replace my pulley and the fan clutch with units that matched that diameter. That’s why I rebuilt my old pump, and why I would like to have an extra. If your new pump is an exact fit, I want to know the part number, and I will buy one, just to have it for the future. Mine has its original 33 yr old shaft seal, and cant last forever!
I would use RTV on both sides of the water pump gasket, a minimal amount, so it wont have lumps getting into the cooling system. I used RTV on any bolts that would see water on their inner ends. I cant recall if that applied to the bolts holding the pump into the pump housing.
No need to remove the water pump housing if you don’t car to. I removed mine the first time in order to add a fitting for a water temperature sending unit â€" which I have since removed again anyway. I removed the pump housing the second time in order to replace the front crankshaft seal â€" which is mounted in the timing cover, right behind the water pump housing. At 90,000 miles it was beginning to ooze oil. Kind of a big job.
My radiator is the later “72" chassis type I think. Has the two mounts on the bottom, and a flange that runs up each side, with a bolt hole near the top of the flange. A diagonal strap connects this bolt hole to another mounting bolt on the frame. I hadnt realized how easy I had it to remove mine. I did make minor alterations though. I brazed nuts onto the places where I could; to make them “captive nuts”, so I wouldn’t need two wrenches and two people to remove two structural braces (added by Winnebago when they made the body) in front of the radiator.
In your shoes, I would be aiming to fabricate a mating support for those upper mounts, that could be unbolted, instead of bent away and bent back. Easy for me to say, at home with my trusty acetylene torch, sledge hammer, and tree stump.
No idea about the p.s. belt part number. I took mine into a place that sells pulleys, belts, and electric motors for industrial heating, ventilation and air conditions systems. If the new belt still only tightens when the adjustment is at its â€"extreme-, you could try the next shorter belt. I had to get the next shorter belts for the pair that turn the water pump and alternator, since my rebuilt alternator had a slightly smaller pulley than the original alt. did.
A way to tell if your current rad. has 2 or 3 rows would be to try looking into the bottom hose inlet with a small shard of mirror. There is a baffle below the rad. cap neck that prevents seeing the cores from the top. I suspect it is 3 row, but if it is 2 row, by all means get the three row. Your cooling system wont care for about 6 to 8 years, then you will have an extra few years of use before it has to come out again for cleaning/recoring. Having the 3rd row would give you perhaps an extra 25% of cooling capacity, not the 50% you might expect â€" since your coolant flow rate through the radiator would not be higher.



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 7/27/2005 4:15 PM

I just stuck my finger in the radiator cap hole and felt around,very easy.The 440-1 with factory air has a three row,for future referance.

BooBoo



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 7/28/2005 7:40 AM

Kev,
Just for your info:

Regarding the transmission cooler. The factory "Radiator installed" cooler is adequate, as long as you are not towing anything.  keep the motorhome under 14,000 pounds and you'll never have an issue. If you are going to tow, or severely load the chassis down, then 1, and only 1 extra transmission cooler will work.

Using too large a transmission oil cooler or multiple coolers can cause front pump and Converter failures... there's a post here about this from Derrek and his Apollo:



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 7/28/2005 8:10 PM

Thanks Denison!  The pulley came RIGHT off once I loosened the bolts.  It wasn't a press fit...just kind of sat there on the shaft, surrounded by 4 bolts.
When I read your post, a lump rose in my throat!  I installed the pump, but couldn't install the fan clutch yet because the old one had studs, and the new one mounts with bolts!  I left it until tomorrow so I can hit the hardware store for bolts and lockwashers.  I read your post, terrified, and I ran outside, and tried the pulley...a perfect fit!  I then took the old pump and mated the shaft with the new one...exact same size.  I didn't measure it yet, but it was exact.  The part number is from Car Quest:  51-1537 NWP (the old pn was 940).  It's an EXACT fit!  The only problem I had was that one bolt holding the pump to the housing broke off.  It took me over 2 hours to drill it out, remove the old bolt, and clean up the threads.  Glad it wasn't hot today!

I used RTV on both sides of the gasket.  I had to poke a hole in the gasket for the "weep" hole, since the old gasket had one and the new one didn't, but other than that, it went smoothly.  I also used them on the bolts.

I almost thought I would HAVE to remove the waterpump housing to fix the broken bolt!  Thank God I was patient enough to coax it out.  The bolts are harder than the housing, which sucks!

Our mounts are different, but that seems to be about the only difference!  I have pictures of my mounts as opposed to yours in my Ark album, page four of "pictures", the last, or almost last, page of the album.

If I can't get the mounts to line up once I unbend them, I WILL take your advice and refabricate the upper mounts.  The design allows for simple upper L brackets to be added...but we'll see.

I found the power steering belt part number, at least as listed by Chrysler:  2532 786.  The alternator belt is 2806 343.  Of course, I'll take them with me to make sure the crossreferenced belts are exact!

The radiator shop called me, and said that currently my radiator was a 3 row.  The ordered a FOUR row for it, and said its an exact fit, but a bit thicker.  After voicing my concerns, they assured me it was thicker on the OUTside (front) of the radiator, and that it shouldn't interfere with width or the fan.  They quoted me 540.00 for the recore, and an extra hundred bucks to add an external tranny cooler IN ADDITION to the lower tank internal tranny cooler!  I told them to go for it!

Thanks again Denision for all the good advice, and yes, you can have the old water pump.  It seems to be in order!  I'll give it to you at the upcoming Jam!

Kev



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 8/5/2005 2:17 AM

Kevin, as Tom said... only one tranny cooler.  But make sure you plumb it in as recommended... in line after the factory radiator cooler.  This is to insure that, while you are warming up the engine, the tranny comes up to operating temp as designed.  With no air flow, the auxillary cooler won't do much... the tranny will come up to operating temperature from being heated by the radiator, just as it was designed to do.  Yet, out on the road when you need it, the auxillary cooler will do its job.

John