Engine smokes on both sides of the engine

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: calbrave  (Original Message)
Sent: 5/6/2005 1:48 PM

How much smoke is normal off of a 440-3?
I drove with the cover off yesterday and noticed a fair amount from both sides of the engine. I recently had the manifold on the passenger side welded, so I think(hope) it's not exhaust smoke. I think it's just an oil leak, but the oil level isn't dropping significantly.
Anyone else have smoke off the engine?



From: Derrek
Sent: 5/6/2005 2:30 PM

Sounds like the valve covers are dripping oil onto the exhaust manifolds.... The PO of my Apollo, had a fire in the engine compartment (that damaged much of the wiring harness) as a result of leaking valve covers. He said that he tried replacing the gaskets several times, but wasn't able to cure the leaks until he bought new valve covers.

While looking at a Kings Highway that was for sale (powered by a 440).. I asked the seller to remove the engine cover while the engine was running, and he did.... the smoke pouring off of the manifolds (as a result of valve cover leaks) quickly filled the interior and drove us both outside of the motor home.......



From: calbrave
Sent: 5/6/2005 3:07 PM

Derrek,
Thanks, that sounds exactly like what's happening. Is changing the valve covers something a neophyte could do? I will do some googling for info.

John



From: Derrek
Sent: 5/6/2005 6:26 PM

John,

Changing valve cover gaskets should be a rather easy job, even for someone who has never done it before. Just be sure to by quality gaskets. I personally like Fel-Pro gaskets...



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 5/7/2005 2:52 AM

OK Guys, I have heard enough about valve cover gasket leaks... I will tell you the secret to keeping the oil in the engine where it belongs! 

Go down to Auto Zone or O'Reilly and buy the rubber valve cover gaskets -- the thick ones.  Also buy a small can of the red gasket sealer shelac.  Remove your valve covers and clean both them and the mating surface on the head really well -- no oil at all on the mating surface.  Now, coat your gaskets (front & back) with a liberal coat of sealer, and allow it to dry a few minutes until it is tacky to the touch.  Assemble the valve covers, gaskets to the heads, and bolt them down lightly -- the valve cover screws are not designed to take much torque... no more than 40 inch pounds on the 360 engine or 95 inch pounds on the 440!

Let the engine sit for a few hours -- your valve covers should leak no more!  This is how they were assembled at the factory, and I did mine like this a few months ago -- it works.

John



From: calbrave
Sent: 5/7/2005 11:46 AM

HHT,
Thanks for the detailed instructions. I will let you know how it works out.

John



From: calbrave
Sent: 5/8/2005 2:18 PM

I've ordered my gaskets, and I've read a bit about changing the valve covers. I'm worried that I may just be fixing the symptom, and not cause, of the oil leak. It sounds like excess pressure may be what's making the covers leak, and that I should check that there is not sludge ( or whatever) blocking the flow of oil. If that's correct, what should I use to clean the build up? Is tehre anything else I should be doing while the covers are off?
Also "Parts Guy" said I probably have crappy valve covers and it would help to buy better ones. Is that right?

Thanks,
John



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 5/8/2005 7:53 PM

He could be right... if the metal surrounding the hold-down screws is deformed, then it could be preventing any pressure from being placed on the gaskets.  However, if the lip of the valve cover is ok, then the pressure cause could be correct... but only if all of the oil return passages were blocked, though, allowing the head/ valve cover to completely fill with oil allowing pressurization by the oil pump.  At the point where the valve covers leak, there is normally very little pressure -- oil returns to the pan via gravity through the return passages, with only a moderate assist from engine oil pressure.

If you really want to clean out your engine, you can use a commercially available product called "Mechanic In A Can" or "Engine Flush" to clean it; simply follow the instructions on the side of the can or bottle.  However, straight K-1 kerosene will do the same thing just as well, and alot cheaper.  Simply drain about 3 quarts of oil, then add 3 quarts of kerosene to the crankcase; run the engine at idle for about 20 minutes.  Drain all of the oil out, then add 4 quarts of kerosene to the crankcase and run the engine for NO MORE THAN 1 MINUTE at idle.  Drain the kerosene, and allow the engine to drain overnight with the drain plug out and oil filter off.  In the morning, put on a new oil filter and refill with fresh oil.

However, since Dodge engines are well known to have leaky valve covers, I doubt if this is necessary.  The head is designed to operate with a certain oil level in the head, which frequently rises above the level of the outside edge of the valve cover mating surface; poor gasket sealing allows oil to seep out of the exhaust side of the valve cover -- and the thinner the oil you use, the worse the problem will be.

By using the method I described, you are making an oil-tight seal that will not leak by using the "Hi-Tack" to stick the gasket to the inside lip of the valve cover and the lip on the head as well.  I know my engine has not leaked a drop since I did mine this way, and this is the way they are assembled at the factory.

John



From: denison
Sent: 5/8/2005 11:16 PM

I had to hammer my valve covers carefully on a piece of hardwood to un-dimple them. These -dimples- occurr from over-tightening the hold down screws. If you find that you have thick gooey black sludge in your rocker shaft area, its a sign the engine hasnt been driven on long trips. On other engines I have used a rifle cleaning brush on a flexible shaft, to make sure the drain-back holes were not clogged.
I am not a fan of shellac, preferring to use the RTV gasket maker stuff, but Johns technique is very good. I glued the cork or rubber gasket to the cover, and put them lightly in place on the engine. 24 hours later I removed them, put a bead of rtv sealant on the line in the gasket that I could see, due to its having been sitting clamped on the head for a day, then put the covers on and snugged the bolts. I have gently resnugged the bolts about once a year since then - 3rd year, 10k miles, no leaks. At least none from the valve covers. My oil pressure sender unit is beginning to seep oil a little, and I only replaced it about 10 years ago. Darn!



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 5/8/2005 11:46 PM

denison, I have found that -- on a long-term basis -- the RTV method does not work.  The heat and oil loosen the silicone, and eventually allow it to leak.  The stuff I use is called "Hi-Tack", and it takes forever to dry completely -- but it is impervious to oil at any temperature.  In fact, the hotter the better!

Your oil pressure sending leak really sprung a leak quick, didn't it?  :>

John



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 5/9/2005 6:09 PM

I guess I'm pretty lucky then!  I had my rig idling for about an hour or so with the doghouse shroud removed so that I could check to make sure my new heater hoses and thermostat gasket weren't leaking coolant...and also to make sure that the new Summit Racing skirted thermostat was doing its job and engine wouldn't overheat.

Two cups of coffee later and quite a few cigarettes, just sitting in the drivers seat, and there was no appreciable smoke coming off the engine at all.  Cool!  At first I had a little smoke coming up as the old coolant from the repairs burned off the manifolds...but after that, nothing.

My engine is pretty dirty, but no overly so.  There aren't any WET places, just a lot of dirt and old oil.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I always say!  If it was much dirtier, I'd hit it with Gunk and wash it...but its not any dirtier really than my 95 F-150.

So, again, it appears I'm lucking out on some things!...lol.

Kev and Patti Smith



From: calbrave
Sent: 5/14/2005 9:31 PM

So I did the valve cover change today. I tried doing just the right side, following HHTs instruction. I should have removed the spark cables, because I had to shift the cover around to get it back on. Also it was very hard to clean off the surface of oil, because it was hard to reach.

I let it sit for a hour, then drove it around. There was still a bit of smoke coming off of the exhaust manifold, but I hoped that was just residue.
Then.....
I stopped suddenly and stalled it when a movie scene cut in front of me.(Hopefully the Brave won't end up on the cutting room floor) I tried to start it, then realized I had it in drive. I put it in park and it started.
I drove a few more miles and it stalled at a stop light, on an uphill. It wouldn't start at all and I had to roll it backwards down a hill about 200 metres.
When I stopped, about a 3 thrid of a litre of oil drained out. I checked the oil level, but it was still okay.
I got it to turn over after a few minutes, but decied not to drive it.
My questions:
1) Can the stalling and sudden lack of started motor be connected to the valve cover work?
2) The oil seems like it must be related to the valve cover, but it was on the opposite side of the engine. Could backing up that far in neutral have somehow caused that?

Thanks for any advice,
John



From: calbrave
Sent: 5/14/2005 9:34 PM

yikes that was a lot of typos.
thrid = third
decied = decided
started = starter
( I turned the key and nothing happened at all)



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 5/15/2005 12:03 AM

If you had done the driver's side and had a serious leak, then I could understand the starter going out -- but you did the passenger side.  Could you have loosened the driver's side valve cover and forgotten to tighten it back down?

As for coasting backwards in neutral -- no, that wouldn't hurt anything.

As for the stalling, I can't imagine anything about changing a valve cover gasket that would suddenly make the engine start stalling like that.

John



From: Tymhoff
Sent: 5/15/2005 12:39 PM

Is it possible that maybe in moving things around to get the valve cover off, maybe the coil wire was slightly pulled, resulting in a partial connection? I would check for loose connections around the area that was just worked in first.



From: calbrave
Sent: 5/15/2005 1:08 PM

Thanks for the replies. I managed to get it started this morning. I think I must have loosened something when I was trying to get the cover back on.

The oil under the car is weird. The level isn’t really down, and it all came out at once. Another thing, it was perfectly clean, like fresh olive oil from a bottle, even though it was changed about a month ago.

It’s amazing how much trouble I can cause poking around under that dog house.



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 5/15/2005 1:15 PM

And here we thought only Sob was dangerous around an engine! 

John



From: denison
Sent: 5/15/2005 3:03 PM

Clean oil under your motorhome? A mystery.
Your power steering fluid might be clean, if you had changed that lately. Brake fluid is fairly clean if you have bled the brakes recently.
If you were using a synthetic tranny fluid I suppose it might be some color other than reddish.
There have been times when I moved the Winnebago shortly after a rain, and water that had been lurking inside the bottom aluminum trim strip ran out on the ground.
Does your RV have a evaporative cannister, and is it soaked with gasoline vapor maybe?
And are you sure the oil puddle wasnt left there by some other vehicle?



From: calbrave
Sent: 5/15/2005 4:01 PM

Ahh, power steering fluid. For some reason I thought it must be oil because I had just changed the valve covers. It was pretty clear though, so it was likely brake or power steering fluid. I’m sure it wasn’t from another vehicle because I stuck my head under and caught a drip in the mouth. Didn’t taste bad at all.



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/15/2005 5:27 PM

Antifreeze tastes pretty good too,but has a nasty habit of blowing out your liver if you drink it.
Ok,im tired,it was a long night.

Say goodnight Gracie.....

BooBoo Burns.