High rpm in 3rd gear. 727

[cosmic]

I got the winne out of storage and drove it around a bit. Man I missed her.
I'm having a problem with high rpm after running up a big hill last year. whats happening is the thing shifts ok all 3 gears, and hits 3rd at 30 mph. now when im running at 55 it sounds like im running at 65 mph as far as the rpm sound. and my memory tells me.
So i call a trasmition guy who I do work for now and again, and tell him. He says it coud be the lock up in the torque converter and that if it was not locking it would cause the 727 to run about 500 rpm higher.
I asked it the tranny has to be pulled and he said maybe not if  he could get at it through the valve body.  ( not sure what he ment by valve body) He also said he cant look at it for at least a week so in a week or two i figure i can try to nail what the culprit is.....
Has anyone ever delt with a issue like this? or herd of something like this? maybe its not the tourqe converter? Any thoughts. Please help!

Transmission fluid level is fine. the transmission is not slipping. and she still drives through the city like a champ untill i hit 45 50mph

now i just read that the 727 did not use a lock up torque converter untill 1978 to save on fuel. so if thats the case and there is no lock up then what the heck else could cause this high rpm.

[LJ-TJ]

>GRIN< Unless I miss my guess it's running fine. It takes a little getting us to but mine sounds the same. She runs and sounds fine 50/55 but up around 60 it sound like it's over reveing. Nup she's just running fine. However I'll have mine out next week and re check it. Have ya got a tack in yours?

[cosmic]

NO I DO NOT HAVE A TAC. Tj what i can say is that the rpm seems up. i was driving 55 several times today and at one point nailed from 55 and i could barley make 60mph. In the past i have done 70mph down the 401.
my friend jason was behind me and he knows the winnie well as i used to share it with him for the first 2 years i owned it. he also says its running higher rpm at 50mph.

i tried to store it at my dads place which involved taking a steep hill. seems to have happened after that.
like i said it drives fine in every other way. im doing alot of reading on the torque converter to see if thats the culprit. im getting mixed storys and having a hard time finding stuff on the loadflite 727 need to find out if it had a locking converter in 75.

[Oz]

Since it is a 3 speed, it does rev high at 60 mph but, you do get to know the sound of your rig at different speeds.  So, if it does sound too high and you can't make the speed you could before, then that's a good indication there is a problem.  I had a tach in mine and I want to say it ran at @ 2,500 or 2,600rpm at 57 mph but I cold be wrong, it's been a while. 

I'm sure you'll get accurate rpm/mph benchmarks from other members.  If there's anyway possible, it would obviously be ideal to get a tach.

There's a couple of observations in this post you may want to take a look at:
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,669.msg669.html#msg669

[cosmic]

well after reading a lot of crap. i have a idea that the torque converter stator clutch is seized up causing more pedal and rpm to maintain hwy speed.  oh shoot sounds expensive. 

[LJ-TJ]

So what are you saying? Do you need a new torque converter or tyranny? Might be able to help you with that.

[cosmic]

i believe i need a torque converter. as they are a sealed unit and can only be replaced.
Do ya got a torque converter kickin around?
I have seen them any where from 169 to 500 bucks on line. i would think this has to be done on a hoist.
I called in a favour from a friend and we are going to go see his guy tommorow.  see what he wants to do the job. not sure but i would think the trany and engine have to be pulled apart where it joins.

[LJ-TJ]

Ok slow down a bit. I have to check but I think I have a brand new one that was to go in the crispy winnie which burnt before I had a chance to put it in. I have to go to London first thing in the morning but I'll check around a bit tonight or late tomorrow. If your so inclind you can do the switch yourself It's not that hard to do but I don't know what your working conditions are like or how much time you have.Have you go a paved drive way? Shoot let me think. I did mine myself and I don't know one end of a wrench from the other. Hm?

[ibdilbert01]

He says it coud be the lock up in the torque converter and that if it was not locking it would cause the 727 to run about 500 rpm higher.

Probably not a lockup transmission unless its been replaced.   I'm pretty sure Chrysler didn't start using lockups until 78.   How does the fluid look?   Does it smell burnt? 

i would think this has to be done on a hoist.

]Na, its actually not to bad at all.   Jack up the front of the RV or drive it on blocks and you can have it out in less than an hour.    Its as simple as pulling the drive shaft off, taking out the 7 bolts on the bell and removing the tailshaft mount bolts.  Then you can separate the tranny from the engine a bit so you can slip some wrenches in and unbolt the flex plate, then presto!  Now just pull of the Park / Nuetral plug, the two tranny lines, kickdown / throttle linkage and pull the dipstick tube.   On my 72 I also had to unbolt the frame cross mount that the tail of the tranny sat down on.   8 bolts and then I'd slide it towards the rear of the RV. 

[cosmic]

ya its burnt. not much red at all its brown and stinks like crap.
doesn't sound to bad of a job. i have no doubt i can handle it. i can just see that transmition falling off the jack and landing on me. did ya use a transmition jack when ya did yours?

[ibdilbert01]

I've always just used a regular floor jack to keep tension on and it and let it down slowly.   

Seeing how its burnt, I'd bet third is slipping and its not a torque converter issue.  Might be time to rebuild the 727.  Maybe a leaky piston seal.   

[Froggy1936]

When the fluid goes from red to brown its past time for a fluid change, when it smells burnt its not the fluid that burnt but the paper lining on the clutch plates that has burnt Most likely due to a ruptured piston seal . You do not state the mileage but any unit over 75,000 mi is worn out and needs rebuilt . With regular fluid changes from new they can go over 100,000 mi but no one does regular fluid changes . Frank

[cosmic]

UPDATE.....
after taking the transmition guy for a ride today it turn out that the clutch fan was not releasing at high speeds. so i took off the fan and put it up to 60mph and no more loud noise which i mistakenly thought was high rmp.
i bought a new clutch fan from napa and the problem seems a lot better. Still in the back of my head it sounds ever so slightly high but then again i was used to the sound of that old fan. it has been really windy and that might be why the winny doesn't get up to 70mph in the wind. like past times.
The transmition guy says that oil is inside that clutch that is temperature operated AND ITS COLD OUT . so buy the time it worms up around here, it should sound perfect.
So some good news. it only cost me 47 Canadian and I'm a very happy man.    keeping my fingers crossed thats all that to it.

[bluebird]

If the fluid is burnt, you have a problem. It's either been over heated or the trans is or has been slipping. Not uncommon for lip seals to give up on an older rig. If they sit around a long time the seals inside the trans gets hard. When they start being used they crack and leak pressure inside the trans causing low pressure on the clutch packs, there for slipping. The 727 is a very strong trans, but they require service. I'd at least pull the pan and inspect, and change the filter. If it smells real bad after you remove the pan, it's time for a rebuild. Depends on the miles, but I'd probably go with a rebuilt converter too. I have washed them out before, but I wouldn't recomend that for you.

[cosmic]

thanks blue bird.
I have talked to 4 different transmission company's. One of them I do alot of welding for.
They have all told me that when you have brown smelly tranny fluid. THE LAST thing you want to do is change the fluid. what happens when you put he new soapy fluid back in its very slippery and the trany will fail.
6 years ago when i bought the rig the fluid was burnt. the same tranny guy who i do work for told me about a product from GM at the dealer which is a transmition conditioner. Its expensive, but its the only additive that will not swell your seals and gaskets to the point of failure. He also said he would never tell anyone to put anything else ever. into the transmition. I put this in and 7000 miles and 6 years later its still running.
I will need a rebuild no doubt. but i will put another bottle of this conditioner in it this year and i will drive this transmission to the very end.  Which i'm guessing is not this year. I hope.

I will dig up the bottle and post the name of it later.

[Froggy1936]

Remember 1 thing You now have the choice of where to have tranny repaired If you pospone mass failure you may be at the mercy of whomever happens to be nearby at the time if failure Plus the tow guy !!  Frank

[bluebird]

I agree with Frank. It's the condition at this point, not if, but when. Depends on how far you are from home when the failure occurs, how much it costs. If you know the fellow at the tranny shop, he may make you a deal if you remove and take it to him. &27s aren't that complicated, and the parts are relatively cheap. The parts are cheaper than a tow bill, unless you have free towing on your auto insurance.

[cosmic]

I here ya when you say how much a tow bill will cost. especially on the side of the hwy.  I'm not sure if your a transmition guy. sure sound like you have seen the inside of a few anyway. Its been my understanding that these work horses last forever. in the 6 years I've had this rig i have to add a quart of fluid every spring. it leaks out when stored for a long period of time and i have had it slip in the spring and as soon as slipped i new i had to add fluid. add a quart or 2 to fill it up and good for another camping season. Last year i put 2000 miles on it with out issue.
Now i understand what your saying as far as chances are it will fail at the worst possible place and time. (that's my luck) But at the same time this has ran just fine like it is for 6 years, and the tranny guy I no just laughs and say just drive it. don't worry. He probably thinks I can buy another 75 d21 for the same price as the rebuild. lol/ :)rotflmao

I just found a donour trany for $150 and can buy a complete rebuild kit for 200 on line.
now the tranny guy wants  $1300 cash to pull it, rebuild it and put it back in. do you think I should keep shopping around.??

[Wantawinnie]

Has the fluid always been brown or is this a new thing? My 727 went out on the return trip from buying it. Nice and red fluid starting out and burnt with fluid pouring out the day after I got home. Had that happened somewhere along the way it would have royally sucked. I got quoted around $800 with a new converter and me removing and replacing it.

[cosmic]

it has always been brown and smelly. so to say. been that way since i got it. in 6 years its gotten a 4 liter jug poured in it for top up. I actually add the last liter to the tranny 2 days ago when i brought it out of storage as i have had to do every year. and threw the jug in the trash. (thats how i know 4 liters total)

that price of 1300 was with a new converter as well and him pulling and putting back in.  i??

[bluebird]

That is NO deal by any means. Why don't you pull it yourself?

Yea I've had a few apart, my first 727 was in 1966. 62 Plymouth push button shift. I don't just do trannys, and don't do them for a living, but I still do all my own work. I'm going on 63 and don't get around like I used to, but I'm pulling the power glide out of my sons race car sat for a freshen.

The rubber seals in the clutch packs are where the trouble is. They get very brittle, when they get old. Even the conditioners they sell won't bring them back. I had a 80 Itasca for a few years, gm drive train. That 400 turbo was a tuff trans too, and only had 52000 on it when I bought it. It lasted 2 years after I bought it. Blew the clutch pac seal on 1st gear 1 mile from the race track. Had to be pulled in, race car and trailer. I pulled the trans out at the track, called the wife, to bring my pickup. Went back and put it back together the next week. It could have been expensive had I not been where I could have left it parked for a week while rebuilding.

Ever heard of Murphys law? I have lived by it my whole life it seems. I'm not a gambler. Those Winnys in good shape are getting hard to find. I'll bet you can find a shop to rebuild it much cheaper than that quote. They should be able to rebuild it in an 8 hour day, if they have a trans tank for cleaning.

http://pryers.home.comcast.net/~pryers/

[ibdilbert01]

Maybe this will help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzJhCBZ1wMY

Its just like legos, w/out the colors!

[ClydesdaleKevin]

On any of the older gas RVs with 3 speed transmissions, its not unusual for RPMs to be around 3K at 55-60mph.  It sounds loud and over revving, but its just the nature of the beast unless you install an overdrive or a 4 speed tranny.

Kev