steering still loose after lots of repairs

[bill_never_paid]

Sent: 1/14/2008 12:04 PM

I spent time and $ on getting the front end to steer like I am in control but still have a situration-"not feeling like I am in control"
Had a company replace the front joints and steering bar and even the steering box ,  It has power steering, it still seems loose to me. The tires move , when I check em' sitting in the driveway, as they should but the steering wheel has about a 1 inch play before the wheels turn. Can I adjust the wheel? or do I need to take it back again?
Bill

[denisondc]

Sent: 1/14/2008 4:57 PM

Mine is a class A, and it steers nicely with about 3/4" of movement at the steering wheel rim before I can -see- the front wheel turning. (The movement at the wheels is so slight that I cant really tell if there is any play - but it steers as well as our family cars having rack & pinion steering and McPherson struts.)
You could try having someone twist the wheel back and forth that inch or slightly more, while you begin looking for anyplace you see 'freedom' in the steering. The first place could be the pot joint at the top of the steering column.

If yours is a Class C it might have a couple of little u-joints between the top of the steering box and the shaft the steering wheel mounts to, instead of the pot joint. The steering box could be adjusted not-quite-right (they can be too tight as well as too loose), there could be play at the joints at each end of the drag link, or whatever steering connections your chassis has. Wheel bearings that are loose can cause vagueness, a steering box that isnt tightly bolted down can too.

So can any looseness at the rear axle; like bad spring shackles or a cracked spring. Is your rig set with slight toe-in for the front wheels? Does your rig have a solid beam axle, or independent front suspension? If it has I.F.S. the vague steering could be a sign of front suspension bushings that are worn. The normal ageing and sagging of these bushings can result in the 'caster & camber' changing - and that can make the steering feel kind of 'numb'.

Okay, Im out of guesses.

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 1/15/2008 5:18 AM

I agree with Dave here.

The 4 most important things in a Class A chassis front end are:

1. Proper Steering Box adjustment
2. Steering couplers (pot joint) and pitman / tie rod ends
3. Proper Toe in
4. properly operating shocks and unbroken springs (doesn't matter if they're not new, just that they function normally)

I know the first thing on peoples minds is Kingpins, but to be honest, kingpin wear will not usually cause any driveability issues except shortened tire life and possibly a high speed shimmy, but after 1972, with the large antisway bar on the rear of the straight axle, the shimmy is even contained. 

If yours is a Dodge class C, there are a couple of extra "thingy's" too:
everything above of course applies but:

1. Ball Joints (by the way..they UNSCREW, they are NOT pressed in to the upper control arms (a common mistake))

2. Idler arm (this little guy has been the culprit for years. causes shimmy, allowing the center link to bob up and down changing the geometry of the steering system)

3. Loose column parts, bearings and bushings. (this is a complicated fix, requiring a couple specialized tools (that means homemade tools, like a screwdriver bent with a vise, a little screwdriver with the tip ground off and a small suspension fork, or a big one with the fork end bashed smaller) and some cursing, but you can fix it... it isn't that bad)

4. Also, on the class C van chassis, it depends what year the van is. There are some early (72-76) van chassis our there with straight axles, rather than independent suspensions. In the case of the straight axle, only the column problem applies to the van chassis. (The column can be a problem in a class A also, but it's pretty rare)

And after all that I can say this with the utmost of confidence:

Dave Denison's "Winnie Wanders" procedure saves time, money and solves about 90% of driveability problems. (the Class C Chassis also has a similar adjustment to the steering box, and the procedure to adjust it is the same)

If you're driving down the road (relatively unpopulated road) in a dodge chassis of any kind, and you can't steer the rig with one finger and no white knuckles, something is wrong.

With proper adjustments, these chassis drive like (really big) cars. No... really... they DO! (or at the very least, THEY SHOULD!)

I realize yours is a class C.

Look at the column couplers and the steering box adjustment. That shoudl fix your problem.
 
if find the column is loose, but you don't want to fix your column, you can replace it with a column out of any van... try a junk yard or even Ebay.

Tom

[bill_never_paid]

 Sent: 1/15/2008 9:51 AM

Yes, Mine is a 1975 "C" 20'er---New tires, shocks 1 yr old and the steering has been looked at several times and they think it's "good to go" but not to me!!!! I drove a 1981, same exact unit only diff (a little) inside, and it drove great--not even close to mine. I plan to take the cover off her in a couple weeks and start all over with the problem/situation. Thanks for all the comebacks---now --I have lots to look at - before I get upset and take her to the shop

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 1/15/2008 1:03 PM

Bill,
As it is a Class C, I have to ask if it's a Dodge or Chevy drivetrain.... pretty much the same stuff, but your description sounds more like a Dodge problem....

Chevy vans are prone to Ball joint fatigue and axle bearing problems when not maintained, but they are a little better than the Dodge van suspension. (and I'm a Mopar guy...)

One thing that I negelected to mention that affects class C driveability:

If you heve excessive wieght in the overhead bunk area, it can cause instability on the road. (I mean like 300+pounds of extra baggage stored on the front bunk, not 20 pounds of bed linens and general light stuff). It makes the vehicle sway and seem unsteady.)
Load heaviest items as low to the frame as possible.

Since it's logically the independent front suspension, and all else has failed, then my next guess is a broken, worn or damaged coil spring, possibly on only one side. (remember that a broken rear spring can greatly effect driveability and steering too, like Dave mentioned above) The coil springs are not hard to replace, but you would need some rather large specialty tools and probably would be best to replace the 4 control arm bushings at the same time. They're cheap, although the springs themselves are not. (this will require another alignment of the front end).

Another thought: check your lug nuts/ torque, and whether the wheels have been installed correctly with the alignment pins in the right holes (it happens). a wheel not centerd on the hub and tightened down without checking could be a scary ride.

Still... whether it's a 1972 class C Dodge motorhome or a 2004 dodge B3500 van... I can assure you: they all drive the same, with similar (radial) tires, and similar weight. (the newer vans are just quieter and have a different dash and antilock brakes, but almost everything else is the same. there's a bit more body sway and understeer with the motorhomes, but nothing "white knuckle frightenening"... unless you try to take it through a Bank drive thru, then you have a convertible!

[bill_never_paid]

 
Sent: 1/15/2008 1:38 PM

She, only say she because of the "fights me thing", is a Dodge. Rear leaf springs and the front is ok-coil-shocks. It's like you are driving down the road and have to move the steering wheel 3", over reation, to get her to stay in line.

Last time they worked on it they said it was too tight and loosened it up. If you look at the wheels while you are stopped you move the steering wheel about an inch then the wheels will move and move ok but when driving down the road it feels like I'm constantly moving back and forth and with the high winds I ran into this last summer/fall up fishing out of Chelan I was about to , sh....., my pants I even pulled over twice. Like I said "not in control". No problem with overload although I do have a tool box on the back but inside everything goes to the center only bedding, bags, up over.
Bill

[denisondc]

Sent: 1/15/2008 4:07 PM

Being too tight can cause a binding that will act about the same as being too loose. With our solid beam front axles it is possible to jack both the front wheels up off the ground; then twist the steering wheel back and forth - from full left extreme to full right extreme. There should be 'play' when the wheels are turned off center a few degrees, and there should be a very very slight 'stiffness' when the wheel are going straight ahead. I like to adjust it so the turning force at the wheel rim is maybe 4 to 6 ounces greater than it was when the wheels were turned to the side.

But with independent front suspension this type of 'check' is not feasible. The normal stiffness of upper and lower ball joints will be substantial -(even when they are well worn). It will defeat your efforts to tell if there is a difference in feel when the wheels are turned to left or right, versus no-play when turned straight ahead. You would have to undo the connection where the pitman arm connects to the rest of the steering geometry in order to tell the difference. Which is what the service manual for my 87 Chevy G20 van says to do.

I think you would be able to see the 'play' when the steering wheel is turned away from 'ahead', but you would see it only because the steering wheel rim could move a couple of inches with no movement at the front wheels.

If the people who adjusted that steering box didnt do the adjustments in the right order, then it still would need to be done. The steps are 1. Loosen the pitman arm adjustment - after marking it so you can put it back to no-worse-than before. 2. Free up the locking collar on the 'adjuster plug' at the top where the steering shaft emerges from the top of the steering box. 3. Snug up the 'adjuster plug' until the steering shaft just begins to feel harder to turn. (This means turning the steering shaft itself with your fist wrapped around it, NOT turning the rim of the steering with your fingertips), 4. Tighten the locking collar at the steering shaft end, 5. Tighten the loosened pitman arm adjuster slowly; while an accomplice rocks the steering wheel about 45 degrees to left and right of 'straight ahead'; until you dont see any 'lost motion'. I.E. any movement of the steering wheel will cause a corresponding motion of the pitman arm. This step can be difficult, because its not easy to see that point where the very slight motion of the pitman arm exactly corresponds to the much greater motion of the steering wheel. 6. Then turn the pitman arm adjustment another 1/8th to 1/4 turn, and retighten its locknut (while holding the allen key in the end of the adjuster from turning). That locknut must be torqued down, or the pitman arm adjuster will work its way outward pretty soon - and your steering will be scary.
I find that I may go back and change the adjustment on the steering box and toe-in slightly, to 'tune' the steering feel to what I like.

I have read several sites on the internet where people (including mechanics) give advice about adjusting the steering box, and they only mention tightening the pitman arm adjuster. They are only doing half of the needed adjustment.

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 1/16/2008 4:50 AM

Bill,
Sounds like Dave has your answer... That's exactly what I would look at first...

Steering box and Toe-in.

Now the steering box can wear to the point where it is "unadjustable" and at that point, you just need to replace it (I could recommend you use an 84-99 B350/3500 steering box if you do, it has a better turns ratio and improved seals...

If you download the M300/350/400/500 service manual (on the sidebar here), it has a procedure for testing the box, worm shaft, adjustments, etc... could be that your box is just bad. You can usually find one in a junkyard pretty cheap, that will probably already have the pitman arm attached (easier to remove it from the junked vehicle) Again, all the vans (B300/350/3500) are all the same box, newer years have better, faster turning ratios. careful not to use the 100/150/1500 steering box though, its a smaller, lighter duty version and prone to premature wear.

Are you sure you don't have a bad coupler gasket or pot joint?

[bill_never_paid]

 Sent: 1/16/2008 10:17 AM

Ok guys I quess I need to explain this a little more than I did to start with. I have had a reliable and one of the best companys in town look at her and fix what they thought was the problem. They replaced, steering arm-joints(?) and steering box (new one) yet---.....

Your not moving and just have the engine running you grab the wheel and it moves about an inch or so before the wheels turn. Going down the road it feels like 3inches play.

Took it back, several times, and they loosened the new box up and said "good to go" and it's not. A repair man I am not, which usually means I get to pay to have most things done. Coupler gasket and pot joint??? Don't want to seen real stupit but have no idea what those are. Yes I am the guy who takes everything, engine stuff, to the shop.  I'm willing to try anything-almost- and plan to try, with my nieghbors help, to see if we can figure this out before I head back to the shop. Don't plan to take the cover off, still crummy weather, for couple more weeks. Thanks for all the info. and I, with friend, plan to see what we can do

[denisondc]

 
Sent: 1/17/2008 3:15 PM

To me its harder to do alignment/steering work on an independent front suspension. With my solid front axle Winny, there is enough clearance that I can crawl under and measure toe-in. But with the front end on my G20 van, there isnt enough clearance. Im not all that fat, but Im definitely not skinny either.

If I jack it the frame up, the toe-in changes too. I dont have the 'ramps' it would take to get enough space for me to be under there with the tires in their 'loaded' position. (The ramps would need to be solidly connected, so the vehicle's weight would not move them apart.) With the G20 I basically increased the toe-in in a coupe of tries, until the steering was very responsive. Then I monitored the tread wear over the next few thousand miles. Twice I have -decreased- the toe-in, due to more tread wear on the outside of the tire. It wasnt scientific, but it still steers nicely and my tread wear is finally even again.

Since we mentioned steering couplers and pot joints:  Dodge M400 chassis steering box with the 'pot' coupler above it. This item isolates the steering wheel from the jiggling of the frame/steering box on bad road surfaces. It can wear and be loose, but luckily mine isnt loose yet.

The other is the steering box.  There are 2, u-joint style couplers above the steering box. They can wear loose or get rusty, and there is no way to lube them - they are eventual replacement items I suppose. They allow the steering box to be mounted so the pitman arm is moving in the same left-right plane as does the idler arm on the opposite side of the GM steering geometry.

I would guess the Dodge chassis with independent front suspension might have similar couplers above the steering box.

I might add that regular greasing of all of the zerke fittings will help too. To grease mine I jack each front wheel (one at a time) so its off the ground, to get the grease where it needs to go. We carry a grease gun on trips - its that important to me. Grease is cheap, kingpins/bushings are expensive. My Winnie has 22 zerke fittings.

[bill_never_paid]

Sent: 1/19/2008 3:23 AM

Tomorrow I will pull the cover back so I can get into the engine compartment and also look under her. Yours looks, a lot, diff. From what I can remember as to what mine being a dodge looks like--------straight shaft to box-straight to front but need to look at her again. I will take some pics. And see what you think

Thanks Bill

[JohnandColeen]

Sent: 1/22/2008 12:50 AM

Sounds like our '69 Winnie (Shorty). We had a lot of improvement once we put new king pins in it and got rid of the bias ply tires it came with. The tires seemed to make a huge difference.
John and Coleen

[bill_never_paid]

Sent: 1/29/2008 12:03 PM

Looks like it will be awhile til' I can pull the cover off my MH and see whats going on we got another 8" of snow yesterday and expect 2-3" today and tomorrow - haven't seen snow like this for 10yrs- or maybe not that long. Need to git'er'don' to see if I can make er' to the rally that Lew-the_handier_man is putting on in Oregon---only 3-4 hours from here and would love to go but not with the way the damn thing is now.April is along way off----------lots of time?  ?

[bill_never_paid]

Sent: 3/26/2008 9:19 AM

Took my-unnamed- Motor Home into the repair shop yesterday as I couldn't figure out what the "H" was going on.  They went back through everything. Jeff, the Mech., has the same unit and looked at everything-stearing box ok-drag link tie rods(new) ok rack all tight Adjusted the Alignment to spec's as found left front 0.26 (specs call for 0.06) right front 0.23 (specs .06).

Does drive better no drift and seems a little tighter---only town driving--about 10 miles to my house--will take it out on hwy this next cpl days but weather decided to blow like "H" and we expect some of that Portland rain. Why can't Les and Terry keep that crap down there where it belongs. This is the sunshine part of Wash.
Mr Bill - owner- of the soon to be named- Motorhome

[captrowdy1]

Sent: 3/26/2008 4:27 PM

Hhere's a thought. My Winnie chevy P30 when driving down the raod scared me to death like I really wasn't steering. More like trying to control a water bed on wheels. Well read that if you have the original shocks  for the chassy, they were not designed for an RV. Though every thing in front end checked out ok, it still felt like i wasn't in control. So I bought some Monroe RV Gas shocks not .thinking it would change anything. WRONG! My winnie now drives like the truck it should. Its responsive I feel in control even at 60+ My wife does feel sick to her stomach either. Its a whole new Winnie. Note: first original shocks only had 15000 miles on them and were not bad. So lesson learned just because the shock came with vehicle doesn't mean there the right shock for the vehicle.
Rowdy