Headlights still flashing on high beams!

[Oz]

So, LO beam is 120W total (60W + 60W).  HI Beam is 220W total (60W + 60W + 50W + 50W).  220W/12.8VDC = 17.2

Is there a Rosetta Stone for this language yet?
D:oH!

[ClydesdaleKevin]

LOL Mark!  If you and other electronically challenged readers glean nothing more from my posts than this, just remember these things: 

The bigger the wires, and the shorter they are, they better off you'll be! Less power drop equals higher voltage, so you'll get more juice at whatever you are trying to run.  Also applies to ground wires...the bigger and shorter the better.

For any circuit, go double what you expect that circuit to draw for amps when it comes to fuses and circuit breakers.  If your circuit is going to draw 10 amps, use a 20 amp fuse or circuit breaker.

And memorize the equation Amps X Volts = Watts.  And its variations, Watts/Amps=Volts, and Watts/Volts=Amps.  Even if you don't understand it!  If you can at least figure out amps, you know how much current something is pulling and that helps you figure out or at least guesstimate a lot of other things, like how many amps and amp hours are being pulled out of your battery bank over a period of time.  It also helps when figuring out what size fuse or circuit breaker something needs, or how thick the wiring should be, etc. 

And for the very electrically challenged, this is the final words of wisdom:  How many amp hours your batteries hold is how much power you have in them to use, like the gas in you gas tank.  How many amps something draws is how fast it is gonna empty that gas tank, like fuel economy.  The higher your amp hours, the bigger your gas tank.  The lower the amps, the better your gas mileage.  The higher your amps, the worse your gas mileage.

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Now that is intriguing Dave!  I'm going to have to look at both of my fuse panels and see how they routed everything in the Holiday Rambler chassis in 89.  There is a secondary panel under the dash, and I seem to recall seeing a fuse marked Running Lights, but I'll check it out for sure!

In any event, it appears the tail lights and marker lights are either on a separate fuse from the headlamps, since they don't flicker at all when the headlights are flickering, or else they only tie into the in side of the circuit before reaching the headlamps...but since the headlamp flickering doesn't cause any difference in the rest of the lights, it makes me reason logically that they must be on their own circuit.

I'll confirm this tomorrow. 

I still don't understand what you mean by saying that tying the power into the alternator would be any different than tying it in to B+, since the heavy draw of the beams would be going through the 10 gauge wire, the circuit breaker, the relay, and then the rest of the short run of 10 gauge wire.  The only additional current going through the original headlamp/tail light circuit would be the tiny amount needed to energize the relays.

Or are you suggesting that by eliminating this small amount of current, I could reduce the fuse size for the other lights substantially and ergo further protect the rest of the wires from an untimely demise? 

I wonder just how much current will go to the relays to activate them?  Not a lot I'm sure.  Can't find that info and I looked before replying to this post.  Maybe I could still tie into B+ but reduce the fuse size, it you think that is a good idea?

Tying into B+ is the most convenient, since it gives me a weather sheltered place above the chassis battery to mount the relays with a nice short wire run to the circuit breakers and relays and lights themselves.  (Not really worried about corrosion from battery gas in the location I chose since the area would be scoured by incoming air through the grill below it when driving).  Bringing the power from the alternator would mean either longer wire runs from the main power source to the breakers and relays to keep the sheltered location, or else it would mean mounting the relays and breakers close to the lights themselves in not as sheltered an area, especially from road splash from the tires, to keep a similar length in wire runs.

Kev

[bluebird]

Kev, I hope everything else in the multifuntion switch is working now. I've just spent the last hour going over my chassis wiring diagrams. They are for a 95 p30/ 32 chassis, but the g chassis color code is the same.  The orange wire in that switch is going to the wiper motor. The orange wire going to the relay appears to be the horn relay, hot all the time, and grounded by the horn ring. The dimmer switch is under the dash, on top of the steering colum. Yellow wire for the 12v hot comming directly from the headlight switch, tan should be low beam, green should be high beam. I believe the switch is controled by a stiff piece of wire much larger than a hanger.
Did all this start after the led install?  I'd start by unplugging one head light at a time and see if you are in fact over loading the circuit breaker in the headlight switch. Why rewire every thing if only the high beams are giving you trouble?
The tail lights also go through the circuit breaker, brown wire on the switch. I'll bet your problem stems from the led lights + high beams + 4 lights = over loaded circuit breaker in the head light switch.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Or are you suggesting that by eliminating this small amount of current, I could reduce the fuse size for the other lights substantially and ergo further protect the rest of the wires from an untimely demise?

Yes, since you will not be pulling the amps through the headlight switch to power the headlights, you can reduce the size of the original headlight circuit fuse since it will only be driving the parking lights.

The presence of a running light fuse on the seperate panel may indicate the upper running lights are routed through a seperate relay controlled by the headlight switch.

I suspect you will be doing a little tracing before your doing a bit of modifying.

BTW, look back at the headlight switch drawings I provided.  You will notice that the headlights are on pins 2 and 10.  The built in CB is on pin 2.  The parking lights are on pins 40 and 9 so they would not flicker if the internal CB opened.  I have read on the net that the current replacement headlight switches are made in Mexico and are not the same quality as the original GM.   So, it is entirely possible this a headlight switch issue.  Your double relay improvement would resolve that.

Does not matter if you come tap off of the battery or the alternator.  I was just using the normal charge voltage of 14.1VDC to acurrately portray amps used for a given resistance.

bluebird5750
The existance of the seperate headlight relay on Kev's instalation indicates it is not a stock GM setup.  Additionally, the stock GM P30 chassis did not use quad headlights like Kevin's has.  This appears to be a coach mfg alteration that makes this a bit more complicated.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks for all the help Dave!  And I mean that for all the help over the years!  You'd think I'd know this stuff...lol!

And yep Bluebird, thanks for the advice, although it isn't applicable.  I really do appreciate your time and effort though.

Gonna get this wired in tomorrow and let you all know how it works out!

Kev

[bluebird]

The later model c class was built on a G series p30 that had wiring for quads. The green wire was run to both high beams with no relay. I believe the relay he found that had the orange wire was the horn relay.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Nope.  The tiny orange wire runs up the steering column and then into the signal lever, where it terminates at the dimmer switch.  The other end of that tiny orange wire goes to the relay.  It used to have a tiny blue wire running to it as well that was a 12 volt positive lead that came off of the cruise control switch, but I ran a new 12 volt wire to it from the fuse panel in my attempts to fix this issue, to eliminate the cruise control circuit out of the equation (we don't use the cruise control anyway, and its not even hooked up at the carburetor anymore).

The wires at the quad headlights themselves are stock colors, but under the dash?  There are a LOT of colors that don't line up with other things I've read or other wiring diagrams.  Holiday Rambler added a lot to the chassis wiring, and modified it heavily.

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Bluebird,
I believe your are reffering to the quad headlamp version I posted on http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=6815.msg28766#msg28766

I am assuming the relay Kev is talking about is marked Headlight Relay and is why he said it exists.  The stock GM fuse block does not have a spot on it labeld headlight relay so, I suspect it is on the "other" fuse panel he is reffering to.

The only GM application that does show any headlight relay is with Daytime Running Lights.  He said he does not have that.

The sum of all that is a coach mfg modification which means he is in the position of having to determine how they wired it.

If he had the stock setup, then I would be be rock solid on the problem being the CB inside the headlight switch.  As it is, based on his description, I feel it is a seperate resetable CB (external relay feed) that he has no idea where it is located.  Because of the fulltime use his rig is being subjected to, he also would like to upgrade his setup to ensure adequate voltage and current is being feed to the headlight system.   He has a column mounted dimmer switch.  For the stock GM version, the dimmer switch is mounted under the column, is not a intregal part of the multifunction switch, and typically looks like:



The multifunction switch engages this switch.  I partly posted this to ensure Kev and I are on the same page.  Here is Kev's description of his efforts to isolate the dimmer switch: http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=6815.msg28939#msg28939

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Absolutely correct, Dave!  Although our multifunction switch is also a custom job done by HRC.  The lever itself goes into the column and activates the signal light switch, a standard GM version.  But another wiring harness goes into the plastic multiswitch on the lever itself.  The plastic multiswitch is pinned to the metal lever allowing it to toggle, and is spring loaded.  There is plastic cover on the back of the switch, which reveals the rheostats for the wiper delay, the switch wiring for the cruise control, and a very tiny plunger switch which is the headlight dimmer. 

We couldn't even find anything close to it at any auto parts store, not even a Chevy dealership.  Not a single book that the better auto parts stores had to look things up had anything even remotely similar, so we concluded it must be a custom job.

Had it been that tiny dimmer switch itself, I would have bypassed it and put in a floor dimmer switch, just running the wires from under the dash that now go up to the column.  I experimented to make sure it would work this way by wiring in a toggle switch down below temporarily, and it worked just as expected, turning the highs off and on, and lighting up the blue indicator light on the dash.

I'm actually just about ready to go tackle this little relay and CB project, once my coffee kicks in completely.

Hope there aren't any fire ants under the nose of the RV!  Yikes!  At least the temperature dropped a LOT last night, so they should be moving slow this morning...lol!

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Which, sadly to say, you are having to reverse engineer things based on good principles that resulted from all the homework you have been doing.   I will monitor the site today while at work in case you have a question.  I do not have my 1990 wiring book here though.

Dave

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

BTW Kev, you really need to get the Service, Unit, and Wiring manuals for your rig at some point
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=%281988%2C88%2C1989%2C89%29+%28Chevy%2CChevrolet%29+%28p%2Cp30%2Cp32%2Cp42%29+%28service%2Cunit%2Csupplement%2Celectrical%29+manual&_sacat=0&_odkw=%281988%2C88%2C1989%2C89%29+%28Chevy%2CChevrolet%2CGMC%29+%28p%2Cp30%2Cp32%2Cp42%29+%28service%2Cunit%2Csupplement%2Celectrical%29+manual&_sop=15&_osacat=0

Might save you some hassels at some point.  I have the 84 Bishko digital version which is a fair quality scan of all 3 books.   Cheapest way out.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks Dave!  Got any info on how to get the Bisko version?

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

In the words of the immortal Stewy from Family Guy...VICTORY IS MINE!!!

I had to remove the whole grill of the RV to properly access the areas need to put in the new wiring, but it was worth the small effort to not only gain access, but learn even more about my rig and where everything is and how it is accessed.

I ended up choosing an entirely different location for the breakers and relays...on the driver's side behind the grill, where it was closest to the input stock wiring, but had a clear firewall to mount everything to, and was in a very dry and sheltered location.

10 gauge wires were run to the lamp plugs...not more than 6 inches of small wiring to the plugs, since I didn't want to use spade terminals directly. 

Got everything ran and mocked up, and decided to plug in the lights and see how everything worked...and one of the spade pins broke off the passenger side low beam on a light just 2 years old!  Really?  Yeah, lets outsource to China, you morons!

Anyhow, that rant out of my system, stopped at the mail room on the way out to the auto parts store and my Summit Racing order was in.  Nope, the block off plate does NOT come with a gasket.  So that was on the list of things to get as well.

Went to 3 auto parts places before being able to locate a replacement low beam
Silverstar 4656, which of course ended up being an O'Reillys.  Been having a lot of luck with them lately.  They also had the EGR gasket!

So 2 hours wasted, but it was still early enough, and I plug in all the lights and now its time to test the system.

Chassis power on, key on, lights one, highbeams on.  The dash indicator lights up!  I go out side and the lights are blazing brighter than I have ever seen them!

Low beams on, and they are steady and bright.  SWEET!

Right on the first try!

Next I had to zip tie all the wires to secure them into neat wire runs, and made sure I left enough slack on both sides to easily plug in the new lights once the grill was back in place...the grill holds the headlight assemblies.  Then every crimp connection was slathered in liquid electrical tape, and every open connection, like the grounds and ring connectors and spade connectors were sprayed with my can of Interstate battery connection sealer.  ALL connections were generously slathered in dielectric grease.

After the grill was all screwed back on, I plugged the lamps back in, pins covered in dielectric grease, and secured them with their bezels, and checked them again...still good!  Lots of wire movement getting everything lined up, so I thought it best to check them before proceeding.

The next step was to install the sidemarker lights, the 88 Pontiac Grand Am ones, and plug in the bulbs and screw them down.

The last step was the trim piece over the lights, which is a very hard puzzle to get into place without breaking them on a cold day!

Finally got everything in place and screwed down, ran one last system check, and the light output was amazing compared to before!

Since it was early, I decided to finish the air intake system while I was at it, and left the high beams on the entire time of warm up and adjustments.  NO flashing, and no dimming of the voltage gauge, no bobbing of the needle, whether the lights were on or not!

Problem solved!  I might not have figured out what exactly was wrong, but I found a solution!  Pictures coming soon!  I took a lot of them!

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Great! Love it when a plan comes together.

Thanks Dave!  Got any info on how to get the Bisko version?

Look at the EBAY link I posted Kev.  There are three 1989 CD copies on it from Bishko.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

So as promised, here are a couple of pictures!  (downloaded a neat photo resizing tool, so its way easier to upload pics now).

This is the front of the RV with the grill removed and the bulbs hooked up for the first system test:



And this is the grill!  Notice that the headlight holding assemblies are integral to this grill piece:



This is a picture of the sheltered location I chose for the circuit breakers, relays, and wiring.  This is right before I put the grill back on, so all connections are already coated in dielectric grease, battery coating, and/or liquid electrical tape:



And here it is, all reassembled, and the lights burning brilliantly even on a fairly sunny day!



Sure was a chore getting this all figured out, but now we have VERY bright lights that shouldn't ever give us a problem again.

It was COLD outside getting all this done, and between this and the engine vacuum mods, I wasn't finished until almost 7pm...just in time for dinner with our friends Ande and Brian!

Like I said, the whole time I was working on the engine and had it running for its adjustments, I left the high beams on, and not only did they not flash or blink, they didn't make the voltage needle on the dash drop even a little bit, whether they were on or off!  SWEET!

WOW are the bright now!

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks Dave!  I'll check them out, and pick up a copy when we can.

Kev

[Wantawinnie]

Great job Kev! Glad you got it figured out, now you can drive at night safely. This time of year is starts getting dark at about 4:30pm here.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

LOL!  I checked the manuals out on eBay, and from the same seller there is one for 29.00, and one for 102 bucks, and they appear to be the exact same manual.  I sent them an email to ask what the difference is between the two....maybe one is just on sale?

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Bishko CD runs about $34-35 with shipping.  I suppose one needs to look close. 
Paper versions are allways all over the place dependent on the condition and how much of a scalper the person likes to be.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

LOL Dave!  They were both Bishko CDs, almost identical in description.  I'm still waiting to hear back from them about why the difference in price.


Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Oops!  Belay my last, Dave!  Bishko wrote me back.  The 29.00 version is just the CD.  The 102.00 version it the paper hard copy of the manual PLUS the CD...which isn't a bad price for either.  Gonna have to get me one of these!


Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Road test report!  By the time we hit Texas tonight, it was pitch dark out...and the low beams alone were way brighter than when using the high beams before the modifications!

I finally had a stretch of road with no oncoming traffic and was able to test out the high beams for just a few seconds...HOLY CRAP!!!  It was like someone turned on the flood lights!

HECK yeah!  The last couple of hours of driving was the best night driving we ever did in any of our RVs...no problem maintaining 55 mph because I could see the road!!!

Awesome!!!

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Had a chance driving out to Tombstone, AZ from San Antonio, TX to use the high beams often and for extended periods of time.  VERY VERY bright, and no more flashing!  Problem definitely and permanently solved, and better than new/stock!


Kev

[DonD]

To quote Monty Burns..."Excellent!"