Rough idle: Ignition or carburator problem?

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: jipjob1  (Original Message)
Sent: 2/21/2004 7:57 PM

I replaced all the electrical items on my 440 engine new electoric brain , new coil, new distributor cap,points , wires, plugs exc. Well my problem is that the engine starts up really easy but I can get it to ideal but it runs ruft at ideal. When I give it more gas the engine runs just fine but I have noticed on my vaccumm gage that it running at 13 to 14 lbs vacumm and it should be higher. Now this is my big question I have split exhaust and I can see by watching the tail pipes that the left bank on my engine is not burning the gas completly at ideal as I can smell the gas vapor and see it on the left bank of the split header at the end of the tail pipe. Any suggestion to resolve this problem or what to look at. All the plugs on the engine look as if thier not getting a complete burn and that's both sides. Like I said befor it runs real nice when I give it the gas and it doesn't back fire at all. Really could us some help here. Could this be carberation? I also check for vacumm leaks and found none. Thanks Jon



From: Enigma960080
Sent: 2/21/2004 8:48 PM

One question....  What  prompted you to change all these components?   Of the  top of my head  I am  thinking 2 things....
1. just because it's new,  does not mean it's good,   
2. Timing Chain....
Pull the cap off,  have  someone turn the crankshaft  with a  socket/breaker bar.  See how far the crank moves before the rotor turns...  by the timing marks, It  should not be more than a couple of degrees. I have seen them run with as much as 16-20 degrees  deflection.
Good Luck



From: 77surveyor
Sent: 2/21/2004 9:58 PM

or excessive camshaft wear causing the valves not to open fully Richard



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 2/22/2004 10:42 AM

What Year is your Rig -? If you have an electronic Ign.(brian box? ) you shouln't have Points . You might check your timming and check to make sure the Choke is fully opening . Does it idle rough when the engine is warm or cold ?  - several things can cause this - including Idle mixture on the carb, Emisshions system - need to know what year .  Sea Hag 



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/22/2004 12:22 PM

The rig is a 1974 Winnie with a 440 and why I replaced the brain and all the other electical components I took down to a reliable autoparts store and they tested the coil and the 1974 (Electronic Control Unit) both were found to be bad and needed to be replaced. Like I said befor just one side of the engine seems to be running rich as on the oulet of the exhaust pipe for the left bank is putting out white gas fumess. So what to look for to repair. It runs above ideal very good and the backfireing I had befor I replaced the old brain has stopped. I'm going out to recheck the engnition wires this morning to make sure their all headed to their correct home. Now the spark I'm getting even with the new coil and new wire is not a bright blue but kind of oft white red but it does cross over about 3/8 inch when I check yesterday on one of the wires. Well any suggestions? I plan on checking on all the bolts that hold the carberator down but I don't think it that. Will let everyone know what progress I make this morning. 



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/22/2004 4:45 PM

Ok lI put in  another distributor cap and rotar and it seems to be running better. It still ideals ruff and my vacumm gage is reading between 13 and 14 psi. When I excelerate the engine runs real smooth. Could this be bad gas?I have disconected and test all the vacumm hosess and plug them and still my vacumm pressure is 13to 14 PSI. Is this fair or should I look further into vacumm leak. Engine starts right up and that gas problem in the exhaust seems to have stopped. But I still would like to know what kind of spark should I be getting. Maybe its in the wire but their new also. Oh god what to do? Thank guys for the help. Jon



From: Enigma960080
Sent: 2/22/2004 6:21 PM

My 440 runs 15 inches of vacuum  at idle  13-14  in gear at idle. 
What  kind of plugs  did you put in it?



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/22/2004 8:01 PM

I'll take a look and that's what mine is and your is well maybe I will just haft to stick with that! I happen to be lucky as I have an orignal owners manual for my rig and it show that it  should be above 15 lbs but maybe that's wrong. I think I might just take it in and have it put on a machine to check out all of the engine. It does run better now that I replaced the new rotor cap with another rotor cap. This time I used that grease that called dialeletric and maybe this is why it was running so ruft. O'well this is my hobbie and even it cost a hundred dollars to fix it was well worth the money. I attached a picture of  my rig and I really have become attached to her. 



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/22/2004 8:11 PM

I'll look at the plugs, I just can remember? Owell that comes with old age and gray hairs. And get back to you on those plugs.



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/22/2004 8:15 PM

Well the Beauty is back running almost fine and now with a little bit more mola I will take it down an have it checked futher. I have attached another picture of my crazyness for my old rig and hope you guys enjoy it. And if you guys have any more information on what to look for a the idealing speed I sure would appreciate any ifo. Thanks Jipjob (jon)



From: denison
Sent: 2/22/2004 8:30 PM

A rough idle would make me suspect a tiny bit of crud in the idle circuit on one side of your carburetor, or a bad adjustment of the idle mixture needle valve. Depending on the carb type, it has what amounts to one idle circuit for each of the two primary carburetor throats. Also, a small vacuum leak under the carb, as from a torn base gasket could be upsetting the idle mixture. I think your intake manifold is a dual plane type, so one carburetor throat feeds only 4 of the 8 cylinders, probably 2 on each bank, and the other throat feeds only the other 4 cylinders. Make sure the nuts holding the carburetor down are all snug.
And of course if the secondary carb butterfly is not totally shut, it will mess up the idle mixture.
denison



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/23/2004 8:43 AM

I was told the same thing about the carberator down at the local parts store and they suggested that I rebuild the carberator. I just finished doing this to my 77 Buick and it was not very difficult. And this one looks like it could simpler as thier arn't as many attatchments to the carberator. Well I'm fully retired and what else do I have on hands but time. Thanks for the info-Jon



From: Tymhoff
Sent: 2/23/2004 3:17 PM

That is a beautiful looking rig! Paint looks to be in very good condition. My "W" and stripe are starting to fade a bit now. Hey what do you expect from a 30 year old rig?! As far as the vacuum goes, what did your timing come up as? If it is a little too low, then that could make the vacuum low. There should be an engine sticker some where on the valve cover, probably the passenger side, that says what the idle speed, timing and vacuum should be. My chassis manual only goes to 1973 but it says for the 440 the timing should be 7.5 deg BTDC + or - 2.5 degrees. The plug gap should be .035" and the vacuum should be 16-21 inches.



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/23/2004 9:20 PM

Well this is interesting, I went down today and got the new plugs and they are Champion. Installed with hisitation after looking at the old plugs (which have no gasket on them) I replaced them with ones that do have sealing gaskets. Now one side went in really smooth and I started up and it ran great!. So I went to the other side and do you think I could get those new plugs (Champion) to start back in the hole where I took out the old ones. No way I spent about hour reaching between the manifold and the sheetmetal that protects the inside of the engine and I could not get one of thoes little bastered to start. Now you tell me why one side would be like smooth as toast and the other the plugs from hell! What kind of plugs should I have in this rig? Peanut type or the ones that have a gastket. Boy I don't know who I pissed oft but I really a little bit mad at such a small procedure. Like I said befor once I got the new plugs in (4) I started it up and it really smoothed out but what to do with the other side? Jon



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 2/23/2004 9:35 PM

Restarting those plugs is easy.Take a piece of fuel line about 12 inches long that will fit over the plug insulator,them just push the the plug up to the hole with it and start twisting,they will thread in pretty easily.
BooBoo



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/23/2004 9:48 PM

Ok I will try that but what I really want to know is? Which type of plug does thies old winnies call for the one that has a gasket to seal it or the one that has a tapper on the top of the tread on plug. Or does it make defference?



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 2/23/2004 11:06 PM

Take a short piece of 3/8" fuel hose and use it to extend your reach to start the plugs. Are you sure that you have the same part # as the other side? perhaps they gave you 4 of one part# and accidentially gave you another box of 4 of a different part #. I work in parts, so I know that it can happen.  Lefty



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/24/2004 12:24 AM

No the plugs came out of the same box. I was a little concerned when I noticed that the sealing area was different and when back to the Auto store and they assurred me that the new plugs would work just fine. Well it was really nice to lite oft the old engine with just the new four plugs and see the difference and also hear. I just can't wait to get the new plugs installed on the other side. Will let everyone here know how it comes out and how much skin I have left after fighting that left bank on the old 440.



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 2/24/2004 10:48 PM

My book shows BL-9Y plug for the 74-75  440 R-M chassis,doesnt show a pic so dont know if it has the gasket or not.Sounds like a Lefty question to get the right answer.
BooBoo



From: Enigma960080
Sent: 2/24/2004 10:55 PM

If its a 440-3, it  will (Should) have the  5/8 inch  gasketless taper plugs.



From: Enigma960080
Sent: 2/25/2004 12:01 AM

From champion.com

Resistor plug, 14mm, .460 " reach, taper seat, 5/8" hex head, projected tip, copper core 
We do not carry the part number rbl9y, but we have the equivalent plug(s) for Champion - rbl9y:
The plug(s) we carry that are equivalent to - rbl9y:

Spark Plugs
         
Resistor plug, 14mm, .460 " reach, taper seat, 5/8" hex head, projected tip, copper core>  Champion  Traditional spark plug  400  RV9YC  $2.24



From: Enigma960080
Sent: 2/25/2004 12:02 AM

sorry about  blowin the box up.....



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 2/25/2004 1:00 AM

I will check tomorrow and let you know. Lefty



From: jipjob1
Sent: 2/25/2004 10:30 AM

. Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Got all new plugs in and it runs like a dream. In fact it runs better than it did when I first got it. I put new plugs in last year but and all the goodies for a complete tune up but after replacing the "BRAIN" and putting in a new coil it runs smooth as a babys butt.

The old plugs didn'dt have any time on them to speak of but I think just by going up one more heat range it improved everything on the burn.

MURPHY LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But of course after playing around and starting it a few times it was time to clean up. Well I guess god didn't want to be quit finished yet. I went in for a small lunch and went back to put on the dog house but befor I did that I turn key on and nothing happen Well I started to check all the leads that control the starter and wouldn't you know the one down on the frame that concects the starter relay  to hot side of the battery was not making a good connection. So I cut the old connector oft (Very hard place to get too) and replaced with a brand new one and now the engine starts right up.

Well thankyou for all you time you guys. I really appreciate the information. Jon



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 2/25/2004 10:31 AM

My dodge chassis manual calls for the same Champion # for 440 3  Chapion BL 9Y or RBL 9Y  - 14 Mill tapered seats . My 76 winnebago owners manual says J 11 Y for 440 3 - are you sure it is a 440 3 and not a 360 3 ?  may be a dumb question .  as the 360 calls for champion F10 or RF 10 with 18mil. tappered seats . Just a thought - Lefty will probably have a cross # for you - Sea Hag 



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 2/25/2004 12:17 PM

Three cheers for Jon!
BooBoo



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 2/26/2004 7:22 AM

Champion # BL9Y does NOT have a gasket. As a previous post showed, it is a tapered seat plug. By the way, that was neat to show the pictures in the post.  Lefty



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 2/26/2004 10:08 AM

Lefty - correct the service manual states 14 Mil. tappered seats     Gasket - None  are those champions still availible if not what Champ. # do they cross to - Sea Hag 



From: UluzYarx
Sent: 2/26/2004 1:38 PM

Please tell me about you electronic 'brain'?
I've no idea what they are or what they do.
I expect we have them in England, but I can't think what.

Thanks - Dave



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 2/26/2004 10:29 PM

Off the top of my head, I think the current Champion part # is 408 . But I will check tomorrow and make sure. Lefty



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 2/27/2004 8:54 AM

Dave - I think the electronic brain he is refering to is the electronic ignition modual it's located on a plate at the back of the engine on top of the Bell Housing - there are two moduals One on the drivers side ( left ) is for the ignition the other on the passenger side (right )is the Voltage regulator and the Ballast resistor or voltage step down is under the Ignition modual . they are kind of hard to see Just follow the wires Back from the coil -- Sea Hag 



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 2/28/2004 2:02 AM

The Champion Master catalog lists Champion #406 (RV12YC) for '75-'76 440 HD, and # 14 (RJ12YC) for '75-'76 440 light duty, and the same for '72-'74. Referenced from ; Champion Master Product Catalog July 2003, pg.140  Lefty



From: UluzYarx
Sent: 2/28/2004 7:17 AM

Hi Sea Hag, thank yu very much for the information on electronic brains.
I have a much better picture now.
All the best Dave



From: In2fire1
Sent: 1/8/2005 3:15 PM

Hi,
I readied the post for Champion Master Catalog but it was a little confusing to me. Which plug would I use for my 1973 brave with the 440. Sorry to trouble you again.

Thanks for the help. Gil



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/8/2005 4:48 PM

Most of the 440s use RV12YC plugs.  Some don't.  The Whiny Beggar uses RV9YC, which is a slightly smaller plug.  I'd say pull one (preferably on the passenger side, since they're easier to get to) and see what it is.  If it isn't Champion, take it with you and ask for the Champion equivalent.