1979 Dodge Diplomat (like Apollo?), 26' Class A, 440, Refurbish

[Rickf1985]

If this engine is a totally unknown you may want to start thinking about those heads if your trip is coming up soon. You do not know what else you may find once you get it running. The powertrain can be a whole 'nuther can of worms!

[sasktrini]

It's not a complete unknown… I'm still friends with the P.O., and did hear the engine run.  I'm quite certain the old heads were the fault it had.  Just keeping my fingers crossed that it's all that's wrong.

[sasktrini]

Well I finally got the drivers side head removed to do the swap.  The larger doghouse is lovely.

So I expected the drivers side head to be cracked like the passenger side was.  New gasket and head should make it run normal, right?  WELL...



I had no idea that an engine could run like this.  This was the first time since I bought it a couple years ago that I had been able to remove the head, and #3 and #5 were toast!  UGH!  I honestly did not expect that... feel dumb.

So now I've gotta seek out a donor or assess whether a new set of rods and pistons will suffice.

[legomybago]

Bummer dude....You've done a ton of work on a class a motorhome with a toasty motor. I feel your pain. Kick that PO in the butox

[sasktrini]

I sent him this pic this morning... but yeah, I felt like I was within a week of starting to drive it.  It won't beat me.  I will win this war.  Since the engine isn't seized, I'm hoping the crank is okay.  Cylinder bores look alright at a glance.  So I could just replace the pistons, rods and rings...

Mind you, I also said "I'll just swap the heads" after I assessed the passenger side.

[Rickf1985]

Those cylinders look real shiny, a hone job at least depending on what a bore gauge says for the hole size. That looks like a real bad case of preignition. I would say someone dropped several nuts down the carburetor but the one is nice and smooth with a hole in it. I am guessing it smoked a bit when it did run?

[Schmitti]

Wow, the engine looks just even worse than mine 

Thomas

[sasktrini]

It smoked a lot, Rick!


I pulled the two pistons tonight.  There was a bit of damage to the underside of #5, but the cylinders, rods and crank looked very smooth.  I've decided to just replace the two pistons (OEM, measured with caliper that it's standard bore), go with the replacement heads, and hope for a few good miles out of it this season.  I just can't afford a full rebuild.


Has anyone removed the oil pump and pickup from a 440RB?  When I dropped the oil pan, there was coolant in the mix, sludge and metal left in the bottom, a burned smell… very dirty oil.  Anyway, I could feel metal chunks trapped in the oil pickup.  I want to clean it up.  Looks like the pickup tube is friction fit.  It was hard to see (dark) by the time I got the pistons pulled.


I think it was neglected, but I hardly felt any groove in the top of the cylinders… there's not much wear, just dirty.  I think it will be fine!

[Rickf1985]

The coolant is probably from the head removal but you said the other head was cracked, was it leaking coolant into the oil? Coolant has silicate in it. Think sand, it will destroy bearings. While you are there you may want to pull a main cap and see what the bearing looks like. What did the rod bearing look like on the ones you pulled? If the bearings are good then you should be alright. I am not going to give specific advice on the pump since it has been way too many years since I did a Dodge pump but usually most of them are two bolts to the block and the pump drops down. You may have to make a new gasket but that is no big deal.

[sasktrini]

the crank looked smooth and rotated nicely with the ratchet, and the rod bearings were smooth. Very encouraging.

[Rickf1985]

Was there any copper showing on the bearings?

[sasktrini]

Was there any copper showing on the bearings?

Not that I recall... it looks new.  Gonna get all the numbers off the block tonight... maybe it was swapped in, and was a bad rebuild.  It doesn't look worn at all.

[Rickf1985]

The holes in the pistons look like they are probably from the timing being to far advanced and it was pinging and it was ignored. You can get away with a little pinging but constant pinging, or preignition as it should be called, results in just what you see there. Were the valves all in one piece?

[sasktrini]

I suspect it overheated first, and was neglected, coupled with advanced timing and coolant entering the charge.  I don't know if this head with the broken pistons was cracked or not, but the coolant in the air cleaner suggests it was also backfiring and circulating through the air horn.  The head and valves were intact and seemed to operate fine… the engine ran like this.  I'm still amazed.  Oh well, with new heads and gaskets (and two used stock pistons from a hot rodder), I think it will be fine.


Here's all the chunks of metal in the oil pan,





and all the chunks of metal I cleaned out of the oil pickup (threaded tube into an internal journal, external pump, seemed to do its job, as it was all under the screen).





Decided I will degrease the engine while I clean the oil pan and prepare for reassembly.  Will try to give it a fresh shot of paint to make working under there a little more bearable.  In the meantime, I got another piece in the mail today for my cabin concept… an electric TV lift for my desk / mobile music studio!  I wish I had waited, in hindsight, had I known I'd have these current engine issues.








Lowered, my TV will fit lower than the window.  Raised, it should extend very near to the top where the upper cabinets will be!  It's possibly the perfect solution for my desk concept.  I had struggled with designing my workspace, and mocking up other discrete solutions!  The best thing is that it is lightly used, so didn't cost me the exorbitant retail amount.  From the States, including shipping, was a most excellent deal… maybe a third of the price of a new one!


Gives me something to smile about for now while I wait to obtain pistons that match my old ones.

[sasktrini]

Time is running out.  Still optimistic.


Before I go on with my story, two questions:
1) Any tips for removing a rad from an M400 chassis?  Apollo owners maybe?
2) Anyone try anything stupid like the engine repair I'm doing, in only doing a partial engine rebuild? (My friend said to think of it like an extreme oil change).



So after my buddy put out the call on a local Facebook group, he decided to buy a seized 440-3 as a winter project for his hot rod.  He tore it down, and I picked up his 8 pistons and my 2 pistons last night.  Part numbers match.  Only one of his pistons were seized, and there are a few good candidates to replace mine.  My price… to pay a shop to press off the pistons for my buddy, and get them to replace a couple onto my rods.  Gonna get it done today, and hopefully reinstall them tomorrow!  I'm hoping they can transfer my rings to the new pistons so I won't have to worry about any work to the two cylinders.


Only had a couple hours last night to try to pull the rad, which was unsuccessful.  I tried to pull it out the bottom, but the lower mounting brackets would not wiggle past the frame.  It seems the only way for me to remove it is up through the doghouse.  That is fine… my doghouse mods will make it easier, though I now have to remove the fan.  Tomorrow is a holiday, so removing the fan, removing the rad and reassembling the engine (pistons, oil pump pickup, heads, intake) is on the to-do list.


In the midst of this, I've decided I'm unhappy with the application of my wall and ceiling panels using Liquid Nails… I feel like I needed a more aggressive adhesive.  I was never secure with the installation of my bunk bed over the cockpit, and so decided to go ahead with the demolition and remove the interior panels in the front half of the rig.  What I found was a few 1" thick blocks floating loose in recesses in the foam insulation.  There was certainly only foam that the bunk was able to bite into.  Also true of some blocking holding the lower fibreglass forward of the entry door.  Once I've installed new blocking by screwing it to the frame itself, and trimmed out the insulation, I'll prepare all the remaining interior panels and recruit a half dozen people to power through hanging all the interior panelling in one fell swoop!  I figure that a 4'X8' sheet (pre-cut for openings) would probably take a team of two people about 30 minutes to dry-fit the panel, apply the contact cement to the panel and insulation, and apply about 5 minutes of contact pressure to set the panel, allowing proper bracing for curing, etc.  The walls will be easier, as the tops have a recess that will hold the panels, and window frames will also apply pressure.  If I'm right, six of us could repanel the entire interior in about four hours.


With music gigs Friday and Saturday nights, It will be a busy week.  July 15th is the day I need to get it on the road.

[Rickf1985]

I think what you are doing is totally within reason with one exception, use NEW rings! The old ones will never reseat. Even if you do nothing more than scuff the cylinders with medium emery cloth a little do use new cast iron rings. They will have more tension and a better chance of seating than the old ones. Stuff a bunch of rags in the bottom of the cylinder before the scuffing so nothing gotes on the crankshaft, wrap the crankshaft in paper towels or rags too. You cannot be too clean in that area.

[legomybago]

Yeah use new rings...

[TerryH]

Another one for new rings.
A suggestion, and I would appreciate Rick's opinion here, is to soak the rag you use for the crank in motor oil and wring it out before covering the crank. May help trap shavings, especially when removing the rag.

[sasktrini]

Excellent... I'm glad the response is unanimous.  I know my task is full of red flags and hope, but if the rings is one not to ignore, I'll try to rectify that.  So thank you guys!  Tomorrow is Canada Day, so I may have trouble finding rings.  Need two oil pan gaskets and exhaust gaskets too.

[Rickf1985]

Another one for new rings.
A suggestion, and I would appreciate Rick's opinion here, is to soak the rag you use for the crank in motor oil and wring it out before covering the crank. May help trap shavings, especially when removing the rag.

Can't hurt and when you take the rags out of the cylinder spray down the cylinder with a little carb cleaner first to rinse the stuff into the rags then push them up from the bottom so all the stuff comes out the top. Wipe the cylinder down good with solvent of choice and then take the rags off of the crankshaft. Do not forget to put some oil on the cylinder walls and on the piston and rings when installing. Same with bearing. I will usually use STP or Motor Honey for this since it sticks around for a bit while starting the engine. Keep in mind you are going to have smoke for quite a while both from the new rings but mostly from all of the oil in the exhaust system from the blown pistons.

[sasktrini]

Didn't get the pistons done yet, and didn't have much time to work today.  But I bought gaskets for the exhaust manifolds, windage tray and oil pan, and grabbed an oil filter.  While at the RV, I finally made progress.


First, in pulling the rad through the doghouse, I removed the clutch fan.  My buddy noted that he anticipated a problem as the front of the clutch was dirty / greasy.  The shaft had a wobble and bearings not smooth.  One contributor to overheating problem?





Luckily, he had a donor from a 318… just gotta install my seven-blade in place of the five-blade it sports.


Next was pulling the rad out through the doghouse.  Finally, I could remove the rad cap and eyeball the condition inside. Well, it seems that it had very poor flow… quite clogged!





I knew I would have to get it in to a shop to have the top cap repaired, but now I'm hoping it can be cleaned and repaired.  It's quite clear to me that this rig definitely overheated.  Fixing these two things and installing new heads and gaskets will restore my faith.  Proper ignition timing will make the rig run happily.


I have rehearsal tomorrow night and gigs Friday and Saturday, so Sunday is the day.  My stepdad is going to find shops to take care of the pistons and rad for me.  I'm relieved to have found these problems today and hopefully able to rectify them this weekend.

[sasktrini]

Looks like the rad needs to be replaced, as I'm getting quotes for like a grand to repair!  That's stupid, right?  Replacement in the "remote wilderness" of a city with a quarter million people, replacement quotes are in the same range!  ARGH!

[legomybago]

You should be able to find an aluminum replacement for less than 200. Just need to do some home work with measurements an all that. This has definitely turned into a new owner fixing someone else's abuse. Keep up the positive

[PwrWgnWalt]

Enjoy reading and seeing your progress - keep going!   


As an aside on the pistons - I had an old A-318 ("poly") in an old Dodge PowerWagon that blew a piston... the compression pressure blew out valve cover gaskets and she smoked like crazy, but ran for many miles and won some mud bogs. Cracked head was the culprit.
Note - be sure you account for those extra cooling passages in the 440-3 heads when replacing the head gasket!

I just replaced my fan clutch - the old one looked about like yours in the picture; replacing it is a great idea. 


I also recommend getting an aluminum radiator, they work so much better!  (and are so much cheaper!)  I had a new big 4-core radiator (copper) for a big motor, and it still ran hot. With a 2-row aluminum (the passages are bigger in the aluminum rad I got) that is 2/3 the size, I now run a 190* F t-stat year round and she stays just below half on the gauge. Always.


If you have a fabrication shop nearby, they should be able to relocate opening and/or make the mounts so a 'generic' rad will fit... I doubt you'll find one listed for your MH.  My advice - find one that has the openings where you need them, the rest is fab-able.


Great work!

[sasktrini]

Well today, I leave for the music festival.  Though the effort was valiant, I'm shopping for a tent.


I ended up with a recore that cost me almost $800 That was the going rate out here.  But the guy is a family friend, and rushed the job after trying to salvage my old one.  He wasted his own time before we had to go with the recore.





So this last weekend, I got the pistons fixed, installed, finished all engine reassembly, dropped the radiator back in, and finally reinstalled the driveshaft that was removed when it was towed… mechanically back in order.  But initially there was no response in the start circuit.  Did I mess up some wiring?  It took much time, but I finally remembered the Neutral Safety Switch at the gear selector.  I had moved the armrest where the selector is installed in order to remove the last of the rotten wall panelling.  The linkage was frozen to the arm, and the cable could not properly push the transmission into Park.  Moving the gearshift through the range of gears did not loosen the arm, rather snapped the cable  .


At least I was able to manually shift it into Park, and finally got the Start circuit woken up.  But My stepdad feels the puny old battery, even though jumped by my two house batteries, did not have the power to turn the starter fast enough to fire.  So when I return from the festival, I will get a new starter battery, get it started and timing set, block flushed and then finally reconnect the rad.