No Brakes!

76PRROW · May 22, 2015, 07:43 PM

I had to relocate my rig yesterday and normally i can pressure up the brakes enough to work reliably but yesterday no matter what I did I could not get enough stopping power to even slow it down. Scary! I moved it to a less desirable spot only a mile away but I really want to go somewhere else. I called a mechanic who told me I probably have a small leak. He told me that if I didnt have enough money for a whole overhaul on the brakes that I could just add brake fluid when I want to move it short distances.

I went to NAPA to get some Dot 3 brake fluid but now I cannot for the life of me find out where to add the fluid. I have a 76 pace arrow on a dodge m500 chassis. I looked all over the service manual and could not find the information I needed.

76PRROW · May 22, 2015, 08:34 PM

I think I may have found the reservoir, at least I hope it is. I found the master cylinder attatched to a lever that comes from the pedal, and followed all the pipes and one of them led to this little bottle thing that was next to it. I really really hope that it is not the power steering reservoir. It was completely empty so I filled it up, of course the starting battery was dead so I am currently trying to jump it. I will perform a bunch of stop tests before I head out.

76PRROW · May 22, 2015, 09:37 PM

well, I started her up but still no brakes. I read I have to bleed the brake line as well. I searched for an hour to find anything that seemed like a way to bleed the line. I found this black hose that connects to the axle. I tried loosening it and heard pressure and bubbling coming out, I let out some fluid and put it back on, hoping I did the right thing. Now the brakes feel loose as ever. I tried pumping the pedal and it never pressured up. I turned on the engine again and it still is not pressuring up. I am starting to feel very stranded right about now.

LJ-TJ · May 22, 2015, 10:04 PM

Hm? Me thinks you got to slow down a bit. Have you got any kind of a Dodge Motor Home manual. If not I believe there is one available for down load on this site. If you can try and get a manual first before you go any farther.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=store;sa=view;id=203

76PRROW · May 23, 2015, 10:20 AM

I do have the full service manual but it did not help. I read the entire brake section front to back. I am trying to get this done ASAP as I need to move somewhere else.

Rickf1985 · May 23, 2015, 10:31 AM

First off you do not know if you put brake fluid in the brakes or power steering?! Lets hope it was the brakes and go on from there. You really do need to slow down and do things the right way in the right order or you are going to make things worse for yourself, much worse. To bleed the brakes it really take two peope ore a one man bleeding kit. You fill the reservoir, bleed the right rear until all air is out all the while checking to make sure you never run out of fluid in the reservoir. Then you move to the right rear, this one will take much less time and fluid since you are only having to bleed from the "T" on the differential over to the left wheel cylinder. Then you move to the right front and left front in that order. This will probably take two or three quarts of fluid and you will have to do this every time you run out of fluid. You need to repair the problem. It will be much cheaper, not to mention safer. And make DARN sure you are putting the brake fluid in the master cylinder! If you put it in the power steering you will be replacing that too soon do to the seals failing from the brake fluid.

Froggy1936 · May 23, 2015, 01:59 PM

Seems you need some assistance from a Mechanic

. As it looks like you have no idea what you are doing i??. You can only make the situation worse if you cannot determine the correct container for the brake fluid

, There is no shame in asking for professional help N:(, That is how we learn

. Frank

Piraterik · May 23, 2015, 05:07 PM

If you had found the Master Cylinder, Then the Reservoir is right there (As part of it). It should have a wire hold down to kept the cap on, it generally takes a screw driver to pop this to one side and then remove the metal top with the sealing rubber attached. This should be located under the driver floor board. Mine I have to Remove the engine's Dog House Cover and I use a Hand Transfer Pump (Harbor Tool & Freight) to Fill the M/C. As My 1970 M300 Winnebago D-24, has no Access Cover plate to directly get to it from above.

You did not mention how low this rig had been sitting?. And where You not able to use the Parking Brake along with Downshifting to Stop? ?

Since you broke the rear axle line lose, You Will have to Bleed the larger Rear Cylinder, of the M/C. You Can "ONE MAN Bleed Brakes" with a partially filled (new Brake Fluid) clean dry plastic bottle and a few feet of Clear 5/16" Tubing.

Rickf1985 · May 23, 2015, 05:59 PM

The larger rear reservoir of the master cylinder is the front disc brakes.

76PRROW · May 23, 2015, 07:21 PM

Well I found out how to open the resivoir on the master cylinder, it was full. I am going to use a turkey baster to get the brake fluid out of the other reservoir. The only line running from that reservoir goes to the master cylinder, that was my reasoning for that.

I am in dire need of a mechanic. I found a guy who is supposed to be an expert at fixing older RVs but he charges $85 an hour. Gonna have to scrape together some cash to get this done.

The brakes never felt right to begin with, but they did work. I was driving down a side road when I pressed on the brakes and could not stop. At 30mph I pulled the e brake and did not slow at all. I downshifted and was able to engage the e brake at around 5mph.

It was traumatic to lose brakes in such a large vehicle. I feel very lucky there was a good length of dirt on the side of the road. It scares me that I could have hurt someone if I was not as lucky.

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 23, 2015, 07:42 PM

If you are sure you have a M500 chassis then to start,

Do you have this set up: http://dave78chieftain.com/M500_73-75-RM400.html

or this one: http://dave78chieftain.com/M500_76.html

The 76 and later one used the a Hydroboost unit, mounted to the master cylinder, that is powered by the power steering pump.

The earlier models used 2 vacuum boosters mounted on the frame rails

Each of those start pages contains links to the parts used with each setup so you know what a part looks like.

Even if you do not understand the components, your mechanic will appreciate the info that comes from the manual for your chassis.

Dave

76PRROW · May 23, 2015, 08:11 PM

I have the 76 model, the m500 chassis.

I bought the service manual when I joined this site. also found the owners manual on another site, so my mechanic will have all the documentation he could possibly need.

Froggy1936 · May 23, 2015, 09:49 PM

If the fellow knows his stuff, he is worth $85.00 per hr most r/v shops are @ $125.00 per hr Wow when I started in 1953 The labor rate was $5.50 per hr Frank

FastGlassman69 · May 23, 2015, 10:30 PM

Please do everyone a favor and don't attempt to drive that rig till you have brakes, no matter what it costs it is not worth you or some innocent person getting injured or killed! Bobby N:(

Rickf1985 · May 24, 2015, 11:12 AM

And you did put brake fluid in the power steering so that will need to be flushed, you did say you had it running so the brake fluid is now mixed with the power steering fluid. Hopefully you did not put much in but I am guess you fill it to the top and if you did then you are probably looking at replacing the hydroboost and steering pump in the near future. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you need to budget for it now. Brake fluid is very aggressive on rubber seals.
And 85.00 an hour is cheap nowadays! I was charging that 15 years ago.

76PRROW · May 24, 2015, 02:14 PM

Well that sucks. Lesson learned. The power steering reservoir was completely empty. Could that also affect the hydroboost brakes?

FastGlassman69 · May 24, 2015, 08:33 PM

YES, it runs the hydroboost! Sounds like you haven't moved the rig yet. If you get a gallon of Power Steering fluid and put the return line in it you might be able to flush out the brake fluid you put in there. Do it quick and you might save it for a while, but like Rick said i'd budget for a new master and hydroboost and a new power steering pump. Not to be rude as we all make mistakes, but if I were you I'd get real friendly with a mechanic and see if you can barter something you are experienced at . Rather than making a bad mistake that might hurt you or others. If the Power Steering reservoir was empty you have a leak , (hoses,hydroboost or steering box), it should show up as soon as you fill it with power steering fluid, you must have heard the power steering pump whining or had hard steering before this incident if it was empty! You can fix this, but you need to ask lots of questions and find someone knowledgable to help you as you learn! Bobby

Rickf1985 · May 25, 2015, 09:53 AM

I can tell you that as a master mechanic I will say to you that you need to replace the steering pump, hydroboost and master cylinder right off the bat and possibly even the steering box. The steering box is not going to suddenly fail but it probably will start to leak because it has the same rubber seals in it. What you need to do right now if you cannot get the mechanic out there right away is go to the parts store and buy a gallon of the cheapest transmission fluid they have, the type does not matter. Take the return hose off of the steering pump, that will be the one with the hose clamp. Find a small piece of hose to put on the nipple of the steering box and put a bolt or a pencil or something in it as a plug and fill the steering reservoir with the transmission fluid. Put the return hose in a bucket. Start the engine and keep adding the transmission fluid to the reservoir as it runs out, try to hit the brake pedal a couple times during this to flush out the brake fluid from the hydroboost. This will all happen fairly quickly so if you have a helper to pour the fluid that is good. If it runs out off and on it will not hurt as long as you get more in there. Run the whole gallon through. I don't think this is going to save everything but it may help and it will get needed lubrication back to those parts.

M & J · May 25, 2015, 10:55 AM

Great suggestion Rick.

76PRROW · May 25, 2015, 11:47 PM

the power steering did make a small noise when turned all the way, but didnt think much of it.

So here is what I did today to try to undo my mistake, btw thanks everyone for the positive criticism and friendly advice.

I only ran the engine once, for about 30 seconds with the brake fluid in, so I hope not much got in.
I tried VERY hard to get the hose clamp off, but that did not work as it was very hard and felt like it would brake.
I tried a turkey baster to extract the fluid, that did not work because it would not fit, after drinking a beer or two I came up with the idea to make a wet vac out of my cordless vacuum with a plastic bottle and thin rubber tubing. That worked well enough to suck out all the fluid I could. I then added power steering fluid and ran the engine for a bit to circulate it. After I vacuumed out the entire reservoir again and put more power steering fluid in. I hope this flushed out enough to minimize the damage. Either way I will budget for a new braking/steering system. Tomorrow I will try to get the mechanic out here to bleed all the lines for me and inspect my braking system. I have not moved the rig for 4 days, but no one has bothered me yet. If they threaten to tow me I will have it towed myself to a new safe spot.

Last night I had a dream, it was related to my brakes not working. Actually it was a nightmare. It was so vivid I will never forget it.

FastGlassman69 · May 26, 2015, 12:03 AM

While you have the mechanic there, you might want to ask him to flush your power steering / hydroboost system out, you might get lucky and get everything cleaned out and working. It is worth a shot, seems like you don't do too much traveling in your rig but you sure do need some brakes! Watch everything he does and try to help and ask questions, you can learn and help yourself. Those parts if you end up needing them aren't terribly expensive but you do need the tools and knowhow to utilize them. Good Luck! Bobby

FastGlassman69 · May 26, 2015, 12:09 AM

I just got my neighbors lawnmower going, it is vitually new, a Toro with a Kohler motor. They left it sit with old gas in it for like 2 years, it turned to JELLO! Got it cleaned out and running good but when I tried to change the oil, there was no drain plug?

? had to flip it over to change the oil!
Rather than make a mess, I took a coil of plastic tubing and siphoned it out, worked great with clear tubing, stopped before I got to taste it,LOL! Bobby Hm?

76PRROW · June 05, 2015, 01:49 AM

Well, I finally was able to afford to call out the mechanic. He definately knew his stuff, just wished my rv was not so awkward to work on. He found the source of brake fluid loss was inside the left rear drum. Both wheel cylinders were bad. Bought new ones at NAPA and the mechanic put it all back together. Also had to replace the axle seal and two lug bolts plus a brake line.

Unfortunately my budget did not get the job done 100%. By the third hour I had to ask him to stop as I couldn't afford another hour. Fortunately he got it all together except for one brake line and the lines still needed to be bled.

I shaped the brake line like the broken original but unfortunately one of the end screws was shorter than the other, causing an imperfect seal. Gonna have to get a new one tomorrow before I get the brakes bled. I have a friend that can help me bleed the brakes tomorrow.

I really hope this works

Rickf1985 · June 05, 2015, 07:50 AM

I hope you put new brake shoes on since the old ones will be contaminated with brake fluid and gear oil. They will be useless. Do you understand the proper procedure for bleeding the brakes?

76PRROW · June 05, 2015, 02:18 PM

The mechanic told me my shoes were practically new, he sprayed some brake cleaner and sanded them a little bit and dried them off. He insisted on replacing the cylinders vs rebuilding them for safety reasons, so I hope he knew what he was doing.

I understand that pressure needs to be built up on the brakes with 4-5 pumps and holding it while someone underneath opens the bleeder screw until it pours out with no bubbles or sputtering.

What I don't quite understand is that do I have to do this on all wheels? I have disc brakes in the front, same thing for those? Any specific order?