413 will not start with key. Jump starts directly off starter solenoid

[Srmartinez1027]

I need some help I can not start my rv with the key i have to jump it off of the starter soleniod.
1972 Winnebago with a 413  i have replaced starter relay voltage regulator resistor and the batteries

[Bnova]

I don't have a wire diagram to see how this is set up, so I'm assuming the key switch powers the start relay coil closing the higher current contacts.  This in turn supplies current to the solenoid coil to close the high current contacts on it.

Turn the key on and check the relay to see if you are switching current on and off at the relay.  I would guess that there are three terminals on the relay and that it is grounded through its housing to the MH frame.  With the key off, one of those three terminals should be hot with battery power.  The other two will be dead.  When you turn the key to start, the key switch should supply batt power to the one of the other two terminals that was previously dead.  This should close the internal contacts and put batt power out of the relay to the small terminal on the solenoid.  When that happens, (one of the high current contacts of the solenoid is already hot with batt power) the high current contacts should close and supply batt power to the starter.

If you can get to these components, it's relatively easy to troubleshoot the system with a multi-meter.  First check to see that the key switch is putting batt power to the relay when turned to start.  If it is, make sure batt power is going out of the relay to the solenoid.  (You have to pay attention to the wires, to be sure you're on the correct terminal from one component to the next.)  If power is going from the relay to the solenoid and it won't start then most likely the starter solenoid is no good. 

When you said you had to jump the solenoid, I'd assume that you are talking about jumping the two large terminals together.

And of course all of this is based on my assumption of the components in the system and how there are laid out, which could be incorrect.  I'm sure someone with a similar MH can verify the system.

[jeno]

i had a similar problem and all it was the main terminal on the starter was corroded.

[Srmartinez1027]

i have power from the key to the relay when key is turned but nothing. while i was testing it i used the ground on the coil and was checking what i think is the neutral safety switch and it started right up.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Neutral Safety switch is located on the drivers side of a A727 transmission close to the shift lever mechanism.

[PwrWgnWalt]

Try moving your gear shifter/selector lever through and back to PARK, and try to start the engine.
If that doesn't work, then try selecting NEUTRAL and try to start the engine.

If no luck, make sure the wires to that Neutral start switch (on tranny) are connected well and not messed up.

After all this, you might end up needing to replace the Starter Relay (the rectangular box on the frame rail, near the starter).

Let us know how it goes!

[Rickf1985]

Another variation of what Walt said, Hold it in the start position as you move the shifter through the positions. Be sure to have your foot on the brake in case it starts in gear. If it does then the start safety switch needs adjustment. If it only starts in neutral and not park the switch needs to be replaced. Keep in mind that this could also be a bad ignition switch. When you turn it to the start position do the dash lights go out as you hit start and come back on when you come back to run? By dash lights I am talking any warning lights you may have like oil or brake. If they do then that is an indication of a bad neutral switch. If nothing happens at all on the dash when you turn to start then you probably have a bad ignition switch. If you do not have any warning lights then watch the gas gauge, when you turn to start and it does not start hold it there and see if the gauge drops like it was in the off position.

[Srmartinez1027]

I tried starting it in all of the gears checked my wires and they look good. I have 12v to the relay and to the other top two terminals on the relay when I turn the key. The only one that does not get 12v is the wire leading back to the starter when I turn the key.

[PwrWgnWalt]

Good info - sounds like it's probably a bad relay, IMHO.   You could try tapping on it with something to see if the relay is stuck, but it may not help any...

As luck would have it, this is the easiest and least expensive item in the system. They are available at most auto parts stores fairly cheap. Disconnect your positive battery cable at the battery post, then remove the relay so you can take it with you (make sure you get the Auto Transmission type).  Remember where all those wires went (or better yet, use a wiring diagram to put it back together correctly, just in case the PO didn't have it right).

Hopefully that fixes your issue.

[Rickf1985]

It is best to disconnect the negative cable for the main reason that you are working on a dead circuit so if the wrench hit anything the magic smoke does not come out, Of the wires or your hand!

[Srmartinez1027]

Have a new relay and will be replacing fuel filter and have rebuilt the carburetor. Will be trying again tomorrow hopefully everything will work. I still am looking into rewiring all of my dash and ignition wires so any help on the proper or easiest way would be great.

[JessEm]

If you make it to Minnesota you can pull the entire dash and wiring from my parts unit for $20.

[Srmartinez1027]

Location in Minn might make the drive for vacation

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

If you join the site, you will have access to the wiring diagrams in the free Manuals area (plus much more).

If you purchase the 3 volume Dodge Chassis Service Manual Bonus Pack, you get a free 1 year membership to boot.

[brokenspokane]

I'm having a similar problem starting a '73 Indian 413-1 with what I think is an after market electronic ignition.  I did just as you suggested.  I purchased the chassis manuals and became a full member----- tomorrow.  However, if the electronic ignition module turns out to be after market the wiring diagrams may not address my problem.

Some background.  About four years ago we picked up a '69 D-22 with a Dodge 318 which is now in pretty good shape now that I've repaired and returned every system back to original.  She's pretty basic and doesn't have a generator, A/C or multiple holding tanks.

Forward to about a month ago when I probably paid too much for a '74 D-23L Indian with a Dodge 440-3, 4KW Onan generator and a Coleman A/C unit.  Drove it home and other than sucking fuel and a few problems like bad running and tail light grounds, a bent bumper and corner trim, two very dead batteries, some spongy spots in the roof and a worn out door lock it isn't in too bad a shape.

So then my wife's car got stolen.  Three or four days later it was located about three miles from our house with an extra 40 miles on it and a punched out ignition switch.  While we were talking to the cops at the scene my wife noticed a Winnie just across the street that looked very much like the one I had just purchased.  When the owner caught me looking her over I gathered from his comments she was for sale.

It's a 1973 D-D23 Indian with a Dodge/Chrysler 413 engine.  He called it a "high-top", whatever that is, but he isn't able to start it anymore and said he thinks it's the starter relay switch 'cause he jiggled something down there at past time and it started.  On the plus side there is a 18' awning attached that looks to be in very good shape, another 4KW Onan generator and A/C unit, dual holding tanks, a door lock that works (hooray!), straight body, bumpers, trim and moulding.  He'd parked it in his driveway in the Fall of 2008 and there wasn't a drop of fluids on his concrete driveway after nearly seven years.

When I asked what he wanted I was shocked!  All he wanted was $300 cash and to have a tow truck haul her off.  No mechanic work was to be done at his place----- just remove it.

Three days later, last Sunday evening, I went back and offered him a mere $200 (ready to come up to three if needed).  I'll be damned if he didn't accept!  So we towed it three blocks to a friends house where I've been trying to start it now for two days!

Turns out both batteries are relatively new----- probably installed this year as they hold a charge and there's no road dirt and hardly any dust on them.  A new mechanical fuel pump is sucking fresh fuel from a 3 gal gas can (to avoid likely contaminated or varnished fuel in the tanks) I replaced the starter relay switch with a new Napa part #SR3 and have wire brushed to shiny metal the ground wire connectors, nut, washers and post for the batteries and all the wire connections at the new relay switch.

Let me back up a little.  I have juice to the headlights and the coach (although a lot are not working due to bad grounds I know there's power 'cause the stove hood fan works.)  I don't want to start it but the generator 'bumps' when the switch is pushed and the generator 'hours' log began ticking away.  The MOM switch doesn't make any difference (the starter battery is not low) and after I installed the new relay switch I can turn over the engine using a 'bump' switch attached to the hot (+) terminal (going on to the starter) and the post in the center of the switch that has another wire going to the starter (Bendex ?)

Okay, still no ignition when I turn the key but I notice (because I read about it here) there is a 'Brake' warning light that goes out until I release the key and the ammeter shows a small discharge when the ignition switch is in the run position.  When I use the 'bump' switch it turns over the engine and I see fuel bubbling through the fuel filter but it still failed to fire.  So I removed a spark plug wire (they are also all new, but too long I think), stuck a screwdriver in it and kicked over the engine holding the screwdriver near the block.  Nothing!  Same thing with the coil wire!  Nada!

So now I'm lost.  No idea how to test the electronic ignition module, whether it was original or an after market addition.  Or, whether I'm chasing the right path.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Brooke

[Rickf1985]

Broken, First, You are the luckiest man in the world with a buy like that!!! Ok, What you describe is classic starter safety switch problem. It has been a really long time since I worked on them but it you can jump the starter safety switch then it should start in any gear no matter what. Be aware of that!

[brokenspokane]

Thanks, Rick, for both the rapid reply and the new path to pursue.  Huh?  A starter safety switch you say.  Guess I'll put that in the search box and see what I can find.

As for having stolen the old girl, I almost feel like he paid me to take it!  What with a working generator, nice awning and plenty of interchangeable parts.  I could tow it into the scrap metal yard and double or triple my investment in just tonnage alone, and if I can get the engine running who knows what she might bring from another Winnie fan.

I'm not much for believing in predestiny but between finding it across from where her car was recovered, the owner being there in his yard at the time and approaching me while I was admiring her and the price he accepted----- well, I gotta think I was supposed to have her.

I'll keep you posted on my success with the switch.

[Rickf1985]

I am curious, when you turned it over by jumping the starter and were checking for spark did you have the key in the run, not start, but run position? If not then the lack of spark is normal since the ignition was turned off. If you have the key in the run position and then you jump the starter you should get spark at the plugs. If you do not get spark then you may in fact have a bad ignition switch. On some models this switch and the neutral safety switch are one and the same. I do not know about yours butt Dave should pick up on this and he is big time Dodge guy and he will probably know.

Rick

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Step 1: Work one Winne at a time.  This will get far to confusing if you try to address each RV at the same time.  Do you want to work the 69 or the 73 first?  Use this thread for the 69 since that is where you started.    Start a new thread for the 73 so the issues are kept seperate.

Step 2: Work only one circuit at a time.  Start with the starter circuit first.  It is simple.
For the 69:
From battery B+ to relay large post. 
2nd big cable from relay large post to starter.
Small cable from relay large post to Dash Ammeter.  Dash Ammeter is a known Mopar weak point.  The shunt inside the meter opens up resulting in no power to the chassis.  If headlights work Ammeter is OK.
From Ammeter to ignition switch ("B" terminal)
From ignition switch (orange wire) back to starter relay "1" terminal which is the plus side of the relay coil.
The starter relay "G" terminal (dark green wire) is the ground path for the relay coil.  It goes to the neutral safety switch on the transmission.  No ground path, no relay operation.  Ground path is only present in park and neutral.
If B+ from the ignition switch is at pin "1" and the "G" terminal has a path to ground, the relay energizes appling power to pin "SOL".  That supplies power to the starter mounted solenoid which allows the starter motor to turn.

Note: MOM switch supplies power to a cross connect relay (most likely in battery compartment) that connects the chassis and house batteries B+ terminals together.

Get starter circuit working then we can move on to ignition

Note: For 73 ignition, is the electronic ignition box mounted to a plate on the rear of the engine with the regulator?    Stock Dodge Electronic Ignition

[brokenspokane]

Yep, the key was/is in the run position.
I ran a search for 'starter safety switch' and didn't find much.  Do you mean the Neutral Safety and Back up Lamp Switch?  There's lots on that, although I didn't find one on mine.  Any idea where it should be?
What I did find was she has an add on after market electronic ignition module made by Zenith.  I have a wiring diagram for the '74-'75 Indians which shows the stock Chrysler ECM and the color coded wires, but they don't match the colors of the add on module.  The four wires coming out of the ECM unit are wired into a connector with only three wires coming out, and those go to a plastic plug going into the distributor.  And the coil----- it has three wires including a black and yellow one coming off the positive side but nonthing off the negative side.  A broken off connector but nothing else, not even a nearby wire that might have once been connected.
I'm bummed!  Waiting to be recognized as a full member and download my 69 - 73 Dodge Service eManual.  That should have the right schematic, right?
Oh, and another thing, I had it wrong about the dash light.  There's no dash lights on with the ignition switch in the run position, however, turn the key and the brake warning light goes on and the ammeter shows a healthy discharge.  No spark at the coil though.
Thanks for the help!
###

I see Dave replied while I was typing.  Thank you, sir.

I'm not usually on these boards so I'm somewhat ignorant of the layout and how to post or where.  Do I just repeat myself, cut and paste or what?

Thanks also for the info on the '69 but mine is starting and running fine, but it's good to have the info for another time.  The '73 D-22 with the 413 is my present problem and I need to get her started and out from in front of my friends house.  He lives on a narrow city street and if there very long will irritate his neighbors more that I wish.  I only have to get her about two miles but I'm going to have to drive it into my yard where I can work on it further.

[Oz]

It looks like the issues are relevant to both and could be interrelated to the ignition so just keep posting here, just follow Dave's advice and address one RV at a time so it doesn't get confusing.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

73 was a transition year and wiring changed.
I take you have the old style rectangular dash


Not the new style dash



Also, does the 73 have points or electronic ignition.
Need to know this stuff in order to select the correct wiring diagram.

[brokenspokane]

Thanks, Dave.

Based on the shift knob my dashboard looks more like the early one than the later one, but still quite different.  From the VIN (M49CN2J565530) I find she was made in Canada.  Maybe that's why.  (Hmm.  The attached pic doesn't seem to have shown up.  Maybe if I post it?)

That worked so I added another wider view.  Notice the ignition switch is on the steering column in my '73 like it is on the '74.

RE: Electronic ignition is an add on by Zenith.  It's mounted on a plate at the rear of the engine.  But it probably was points and plugs originally----- right?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

M49CN2J565530
Decodes to 1972 M375 Motor Home Chassis, 413-1, 10,001 lbs to 14,000 lbs GVW, Canadian Built
A M375 chassis should have 17" x 5 lug Split Rims.

Reference 72 Dodge wiring diagram
From battery B+ to relay large post (Circuit 6RE).
2nd big cable from relay large post to starter (Circuit 6RE).
Small cable from relay large post to Dash Ammeter.  [Circuit 14RE fusible link to S1(10RE) to Ammeter]
Dash Ammeter is a known Mopar weak point.  The shunt inside the meter opens up resulting in no power to the chassis.  If headlights work Ammeter is OK.
From Ammeter to ignition switch ("B" terminal) [Circuit A20C(10BK) to junction to A20A(10BK) to shipping plg to junction to A20B(12BK) to steering wheel connector to BATT(12BK) to ignition switch]
From ignition switch (orange wire) back to starter relay "1" terminal which is the plus side of the relay coil. (Circuit START(18OR) to J18(18OR) to relay pin 1)
The starter relay "G" terminal (dark green wire) is the ground path for the relay coil.  It goes to the neutral safety switch installed on the drivers side of the transmission.  [Circuit N1(18DG/WH) to center pin of Neutral Safety switch]
No ground path, no relay operation.  Ground path is only present in park and neutral.
If B+ from the ignition switch is at pin "1" and the "G" terminal has a path to ground, the relay energizes appling power to pin "SOL".  That supplies power to the starter mounted solenoid which allows the starter motor to turn.

Other than a ad from 1977, I have not been able to locate any info for the Zenith system.  You might have to eithe convert back to points or install a Pertronix conversion  Here is the Ignitor II Installation instruction for the Pertroniix: http://www.pertronix.com/docs/instruction-sheets/91381A.pdf

[Rickf1985]

I told you Dave was the Dodge guy!