413 will not start with key. Jump starts directly off starter solenoid

[brokenspokane]

Thanks, Dave!

Using the wiring diagram for the right year chassis and your excellent walk-through of the circuit allowed me to finally find my ignition problems.   Although, upon starting her I immediately found a whole new issue, but to that in a minute.

Before I received your walk-through for the proper circuit and the wiring diagram I had already replaced the Starter Relay Switch, thinking that was the likely cause.  Wrong!

So, to get it out from in front of my friends house, at six o'clock on Sunday morning we hooked her up to the back of his '51 ton-and-a-half Ford flatbed truck using a piece of chain pulled tight through a 7' length of hefty metal well casing.  He told me all I had to do was steer the Winnie and stay lined up with him when turning corners.  We only had about two miles to haul her but by the time we got to my house my 'snaputin' was cutting button holes in the seat!  Terry doesn't have a speedometer and when I asked him later how fast he thought he was going he said 20 or 25, but the speedometer on the Winnie said 30+.

At home I made sure the negative ground for both batteries was polished to clean metal and then followed your diagram checking that I had power from the battery through the dual battery solenoid, starter relay switch, neutral safety switch and on to the coil, all successfully.  When I got under the dash to check the ignition switch circuit I found a bunch of hot and melted wires and what looked to me like about a 10 gauge fusible link that was hot and crisp as toast.  I'd been chasing power (12V) instead of continuity and had missed the fact I had a draw somewhere.  After pulling the negative battery terminal I rechecked the continuity of the circuits back to the 'crispy' wire and discovered it was the 'shipping' by-pass and that it was so very very corroded as to be heating up and melting other wires in it's vicinity.  After removing the toasted wire I connected the two ends and repaired the burnt insulation on the other wires with shrink tubing and liquid electrical insulation which I recently discovered.

The ingition circuit failed at the switch.  Turning the key to the run position completed the circuit to the starter relay switch but turning the key to the start position failed to close the circuit and engage the starter solenoid.  I had previously found hooking up a bumper switch to the starter switch relay would turn over the engine but it still was not supplying any spark at the ignition coil wire.

So I took the coil off and replaced it with the one off my '74 D-23L and what do you know, spark at the coil wire!

Bought a new coil and replaced the distributor cap just for the sake of it (the PO had a spare stored away), turned the key to on and pushed the bumper switch and Varoom!  The old girl jumped to life---- and forward!

And there lies the new problem.  Although the vehicle was in park it pulled forward for about ten feet before the right tire hit the curb and stopped her.  By holding the brake on I could run the engine against the transmission but it was like it was under a load.  Checking in Neutral the drag was the same but as the engine warmed and the automatic choke opened up it was less able to resist the load and more difficult to keep running.  I didn't try going through the gears for two reasons; 1) It was becoming increasingly difficult to keep running and 2) the drivers seat is presently removed and my legs aren't long enough or jointed properly to reach the pedals while standing up.

So now she starts.  Thank you Dave, Rick and Oz for helping me find the problem and for breaking in a newbe.  I gather I should do a little research before starting a new thread on how to solve my problem of the vehicle moving when it starts, right?  That is the recommend procedure, right?  Or would you have other suggestions as to how and where I should start?

Thanks again!

Brooke

[Rickf1985]

Are you sure you are in park and not in low? You may want to get some hefty wheel chocks until you get that one figured out. You might have to take the linkage off of the transmission and manually get it in park down there to be sure that is not the problem. It is most likely a shift linkage adjustment issue.

[brokenspokane]

Hmm?  Chocks are a good idea.  Blocks would be better but the city has an ordinance against blocking up a vehicle on the city streets for more than 24 hours.  Good for legitimate repair shops but put a real kink in backyard mechanics and vehicle owners doing a lot of their own work.

I know nothing about automatic transmissions.  My searches last night turned up nothing pertaining to the vehicle creeping or the transmission engaged when started.  Must be using the wrong terms 'cause I'm sure someone else has had this issue.

I checked that the Neutral Safety Switch had continuity through it during my starting diagnostic.  I gathered from my reading here that if the Neutral Safety switch wasn't working the vehicle wouldn't start, but a friend thinks different.  He says if the switch fails the vehicle will start in any gear.  If that's the case I suppose it could start and move if the linkage is messed up.  Hmm, another trip down under.

[Rickf1985]

"Usually" if the neutral safety switch fails the vehicle will not start but that is not always a given. In some vehicles the switch has to pass voltage to start and others it has to ground to start. I don't have a diagram for yours so I don't know there. The fact is that it is starting in gear so you need to manually go under there and disconnect the linkage and shift it to park. Then get your brakes and main systems gooing right and come back to the starting issue. I think the linkage needs adjustment if it indicated park but still moved since in park there is a mechanical stop in the transmission.

[legomybago]

Yeah id be looking at the shift linkage too....asap.

[MotorPro]

It is possible for the contacts in the safety switch to weld together and start in any gear but 95% of the time if they go bad the engine will not turn over at all.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Neutral safety switch provides a path to ground.
Sounds like you were not in park if the vehicle is moving.
Adjustment and setup procedure is in the service manual.

[Rickf1985]

Anything is possible with a bad electrical component, I have seen them fail in all kinds of ways. You have said you had a bunch of burnt wires so there are probably other issues there to deal with. The main one we are talking about right now is the fact that it indicate neutral but is not in neutral. I have seen several posts referring to shift cables, I am not familiar with the older Winnies but if this has a cable operated shifter the cable may be broken or stretched, in which case it is getting ready to break.

[brokenspokane]

Wow, it's been hot!  Way too hot to be working under the '73 or standing on my head inside the dog house.

But I did scrape off some of the grit and grime from around the transmission shift levers and took a closer look at the lower end of the cable.  It's intact and securely attached to the mounting bracket.  The end of the cable is attached to the lower of two levers extending from the right side of the transmission case.  The upper lever is activated by a rod linked to the carburetor which I presume engages under load to downshift; in any event it moves freely.  The lower lever, however, is pushed to the rear and will not budge by hand.  I'm hesitant to whack on it----- yet.

The top end of the cable is bending or folding into the shifters housing just forward of where it attaches.  The shifter knob moves freely and when it's is in the low-gear position the cable appears to be extended properly. but when the lever is moved towards Park the cable fails to advance into the sheath and doubles up upon itself.

As for the Neutral Safety Switch, it was greasy on the outside but the contacts appear shinny.  The part attached to the wire is just a round connector, right?  And the switch part screws out of the housing, right?  About a 7/8"?

So, shall I disconnect the lower end of the cable and whack on the shift lever?  Using a wooden drift how hard would you think I could whack on the lever without damaging something?  And, then what?

Thanks for your ideas and experience.  The support and suggestions you guys give is really appreciated!

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

First thing, please remember this is an automatic transmission.  Before doing anything, block the wheels to ensure the rig will not roll when you move the lever.  It is one thing to move the shifter inside the rig with your foot on the brake.  Quite another under the rig and it starts to roll

[brokenspokane]

Got her chocked and the tire turned against the curb but I'm going to put the rear end on blocks before I try to disengage it.  I wasn't thinking of having the engine running when I tried.  Should I be?  Is it necessary?  Doesn't sound too wise----- in fact, pretty scary!

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Neutral Safety Switch only allows the engine to be started when the transmission is in Park or Neutral.  To perform that function it has to be a mechanical not hydraulic action so the engine does not have to be running to check the action of the switch.

[brokenspokane]

But, it DOES start in gear!

I blocked the rear wheels off the ground and chocked the front tires.  Disconnected the cable attached to the lower lever and "click'" it went into a gear.  I thought it would be neutral but upon starting the engine (which it did) the tires spun.  So I tried the next gear position to the rear.  Same thing.  All the way forward didn't stop them but I finally found with the lever all the way in the rear position the wheels stopped moving.

Hooray!  It's in Park!

But the engine did start in every gear including Park.  So I disconnected the neutral safety switch!  I unplugged the connector to see what would or wouldn't happen when I turned over the engine.   About two 'chugs' and nothing!  Checked the in-line fuse I installed with the starter button coming off the starter relay switch and as I suspected I'd blown a 20 amp fuse.  Interesting, huh?

I replaced the fuse and she started right up again.  So now she's sitting in the city street with her tail raised up on blocks.   I'm assuming I need a new transmission cable and found what I think is the part I need in another forum topic.  P/N 435059c1 which is available through International Truck Parts.  http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,3050.0.html

Whaddayathink?

[Rickf1985]

What you describe is a broken shift cable. The shifter on the transmission will be a little tight to move by hand and you can tap it with something but don't hit it too hard. All you have to overcome is the detent balls on the shifter arm inside the tranny. Look at your cable, if you move the shifter to park and that is pushing the cable in towards the transmission then that is the direction you want to move the shifter arm. Move it all the way as far as it will go in that direction and you will be in park. If it still moves when you start it then shut it off and move the shifter all the way the other way. If it still moves there then the pan is going to have to come down and see what has happened inside.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Be sure and read this thread: http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,11452.0.html

The transmission shifter cable is getting hard to locate.

[Oz]

Hm... I thought they are pretty much all in the same place as where they put them at the factory?

[brokenspokane]

"The transmission shifter cable is getting hard to locate."

I'll say!  I've contacted both International Truck's and NAPA Parts.  Both took the part numbers and other info but neither has called me back and it's been a week.  This cable isn't reparable as it got up against the exhaust manifold and melted the sheath and cable together.

I read the forum where thewinniedodger suggests using bicycle cable but the instructions seem a little vague.

Brooke

[Rickf1985]

Did you read the link that Dave put up?  There was a related link in there on converting to a common aftermarket cable. Very easy to do and fairly cheap. Then if something like this happens again you can get a replacement.

Go here, http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,10543.0.html

[brokenspokane]

Good morning, Rickf1985.  I did read that link and it's excellent!  I'd love to go that way.  I sent a PM to DRMousseau (author) asking for more product info, like name brand, where to buy, etc because when I went to both O'Reilly's and Auto Zone looking for the cable in the photo I got pretty much a "Duh?" response from personnel at both stores. 

I'm going to try Napa and see if they have anyone working the counter who was born before this Winnie was built ('72 - '73.)

[Rickf1985]

Best place for the cable would be Summitracing.com. Super fast delivery and good prices.

[brokenspokane]

Just went to Summitracing.com and found clutch and carb cables but my search for 727 cable didn't turn up the shifter cable.  The cable I located had a 90 degree angle on the end.

Wouldn't have their number for the cable would you?  Please and thanks!

[Rickf1985]

Here is the section you will want at Summit but I would wait until you here from DrMousseau before ordering anything since his modifications work with whatever part number he used. Different cables have different size holes on the ends and there are many different lengths.

[brokenspokane]

I don't see a link.  Did I miss something or did you?   

Is the good DrMousseau a regular?  Other than a PM any suggestions in how to contact him?

[Bnova]

I don't see a link.  Did I miss something or did you?   

Is the good DrMousseau a regular?  Other than a PM any suggestions in how to contact him?

Here ya go, just gotta figure out what length you need.  Pull the old one and measure.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/b-m/part-type/shifter-cables-automatic-transmission/?PageSize=25&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending

[Bnova]

I don't see a link.  Did I miss something or did you?   

Is the good DrMousseau a regular?  Other than a PM any suggestions in how to contact him?

This might be the bracket set.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bmm-10497/overview/