Source needed for power steering booster

[MSN Member]

From: 70winnie  (Original Message)
Sent: 4/29/2004 5:07 PM

My mechanic tells me that the power steering booster for the line that runs parallel to the front axle  is leaking badly on my 1970 Winnebago with a Dodge 440.  He said he has to replace the booster as well as the two hoses that go along with it, but he doesn't know where to get one.  Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Andrew



From: denison
Sent: 4/29/2004 6:40 PM

If your winny is a 1970, it would have a 413 engine in it, not a 440, (both with the distributor at the front of the motor), or even the318 (distributor at the back of the motor). But regardless, it would have a similar steering system. When you say the -booster- I am confused. A 1970 steering system has 1. A power steering pump, 2. A power assisted steering box, and 3. Two hoses connecting them together - one is the high pressure hose, with swaged fittings in order to handle up to 1200 psi, the other is the return line, a low pressure hose - can be made from 3/8th or 7/16th fuel hose. I am going to presume that by -booster- you meant the power steering box Any of the items might be leaking. It is easy to buy rebuilt mopar power steering pumps, at least I just took my old one in and they matched it. under $80. The high pressure line I got from dartman67-at-hotmail.com, except type the upper case 2 in place of the -at-. It cost about $40, and is a different shape with different years/engines/chassis â€" you need to know those things to order one, or take the old one in and get your old ends put onto a new hose at a place that can make up such hoses for trucks. The steering box might leak from its seals, one at the side where the sector shaft comes out, the other at the top where the steering shaft goes in from the steering column. It is not likely to leak from anywhere else, unless some of its bolts or the hose fittings were loose. You can have the steering box rebuilt, or buy a rebuilt one, and expect to pay more than a couple of hundred for that. You can probably also buy the seals in kits, also from dartman67, and either have your mechanic put the seals in, or have him find someone who can do that. The top seal is likely to leak the worst, but once the steering box is off the vehicle, it isnt too hard to replace. That seal itself would cost under $20, assuming the internal parts are okay. Mine was losing a pint or more of p.s. fluid in a days drive, all from that top seal. If that is where yours is leaking, email me and I can dig up the seal number for the Saginaw steering box. Yours might have the Ross steering box however, and I wouldn't be able to help in that case. But if you or your mechanic gets that seal off and can read its number, then you could buy a new one at a decent industrial source for bearings and seals. They switched from the Ross HF-54 sterring box sometime in 1969, which could have had a 1970 winnebago title to the coach. After that they used the Saginaw 708. If you could take a picture of it I could tell you which one you have. And the dodge parts catalog calls that power steering box a â€"steering chuck-.
Search the resource links on this site if you want to find a source for the rebuilt power steering boxes, or -chucks-. Also find a place near you that supplies commercial trucks - they could probably order one - might need your old one as a core. Good Luck and let us know the outcome.



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 4/29/2004 9:32 PM

Here is some Dodge P/N info that may be useful

Ross Steering box - 2914573
Master seal kit for Ross - 2961843

Saginaw Steering box (except M600 chassis)
     69-70 - 3491347
     71-77 - 3633527

Also, the NAPA website shows Pressure/Return hoses for both 69 and 70 M300 chassis'.  The NAPA site only lists the 318 enigne however, the Dodge parts manual does not indicate there is any difference between 318 and 413 in the Power steering box area.  The NAPA 318 listing would be ok to use.  Some partial seal kits are listed as well as P/S pumps.

Dave



From: 70winnie
Sent: 4/30/2004 4:26 PM

I showed your messages to my mechanic, he said mine doesnt have a power assisted steering box.  Instead, it has two hydraulic "shock-like things" that connect to each wheel to provide the steering assistance.  He said it's the same setup that was used on some older muscle cars (he specifically said Mustangs, although my engine is a Dodge).

One thing he did correct me on, I don't need a new booster, just the hoses.

How does one tell the difference between a 413 engine and a 440?

Also, does anyone know which of the following manuals is the one I should purchase the CD-ROMs of?:

    81-370-9350    1969-1971    Dodge Light Truck and Motorhome Service

    81-690-1162    1969-1975    Dodge Motorhome Parts Book

    81-690-1314    1969-1977    Dodge Motorhome Chassis Parts Catalog

    81-370-0073    1970        Dodge Motorhome Chassis Service Manual

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the help I'm getting from this site.  Not just in answers to my questions, but it's been a great site for research as well.  As I go through the process of remodeling, I plan to post lots of photos and other discoveries to help give a little back. :-)



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 4/30/2004 7:10 PM

Have you located the Dodge VIN number?  That would help to resolve the engine issue.  Also, the 69 - 77 parts book I have does not show anything like what you describe.  Be aware that some of the rigs were based on a ford vs Dodge chassis.  I am wondering if you actually have a ford chassis.
Both the 413 and the 440 have the distributor mounted at the front on the passenger side.  The spark plugs are accessed from above the exhaust manifolds on a 413.  They are below the exhaust manifold on a 440.  The 440 was not available until 1973 in a Dodge MH chassis.
Dodge did have a steering stabilizer option available that would be a shock absorber like device between the I beam axle and the tie rod link however, no hoses would have been connected to it.
Take a look at your valve covers and air cleaner housing to see if there are any stickers indicating brand ie. Dodge (Mopar) or Ford (fomoco).  Something sorta sounds amiss here from the Dodge perspective at least.   I would hate to see you pay the CD price for something you do not have.  I have one of the CD versions of the service manual and I know they are not cheap.  I can tell you up front that the 81-690-1314 (69-77 Parts) book you listed above does not show what you are describing.  I have a paper copy of it.  Well, actually I have 81-690-1389 which says it supersedes 81-690-1314.  I have noticed you have to read the lines carefully at the MoparManuals site because of the superseding issue.

Dave



From: denison
Sent: 4/30/2004 10:45 PM

Or remove the engine cover and the air cleaner, and post a picture of the top of the motor, as well as the steering boosters. ??



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 5/2/2004 11:53 AM

Andrew - locating and posting your chassis vin # would be the best step at this point , as it helps us determine exactly which Year and model chassis and engine you actually have - If It's a 70 Winnebago it surley should be a Dodge chassis ,As I belive Winnebago only used Ford Chassis in 1965 for the Life Time motor homes and the F19 in 1966 and maybe some 1967 models . before switching to all Dodge model Chassis until the mid 70's . - Your vin should be on a black dodge plate or maybe stamped on the passenger side outer frame rail between the spring and front bumper bracket . the 70 chassis vin should begin with "H3"or "H4 ' if a 1970 - or "63" or "64" if a 1969 Chassis -Sea Hag 



From: 70winnie
Sent: 5/4/2004 9:08 PM

I was able to take pics of my engine today as well as the hose that is leaking.  You'll find them here:

http://groups.msn.com/ClassicWinnebagoMotorhomes/70winnie.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3116

(if clicking the link doesn't work, just find my "70 Winnie" album, they're in there).

I was unable to find the Dodge VIN, or anything that even loosely resembled numbers in the frame near the front passenger-side wheel.  I did find the following numbers, which might be helpful:

On the top of the engine, behind the carberator, molded into the engine, is what looks like the Chrysler logo, followed by a capital "T", followed by what looks like the number "4" in a circle (or possibly a "+" in a circle).  Below that, is the number "3898444-2", and below that, "110".  You can kinda see the first line (especially the top of the "T") in the first photo.

On the top of the valve covers (I think?) on the passenger side (behind where the hose to the air filter housing attaches) is a white plate (you can see it clearly in the photo).  It says "CAUTION - TORQUE SPARK PLUGS TO 10 FT. LBS." and below that "CHRYSLER CORPORATION 3735074".

The serial number on the Winnebago plate outside and behind the door says that the serial number is "WPTD22S" followed by a 3 digit number (not sure if it's a good idea to post complete serial numbers online).  Also, on the wall inside next to the passenger seat is an old "PENNSYLVANIA SPECIAL PLATE" plate that says, among other things, that the MFG SERIAL NUMBER is "326179" followed by four more digits.  That serial number matches the VIN on my registration -- I don't know if it's the Dodge VIN?

So guys, what do I have here?  LOL!  Is this a 413 or a 440?  The spark plugs are accessed from below the exhaust manifold, if I know what the exhaust manifold looks like (and I'm guessing I do).

If it's a 440, does that mean it's not the original engine?

I appreciate all of the help!



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 5/5/2004 12:00 AM

That sure looks like a 440 to me (plugs under the exhaust manifold).  SOmeone may have swapped one in along the way.  That Carter Thermoquad sitting there also indicates it's a Dodge chassis.  Even though the Dodge MH parts book does not indicate the type of power steering setup you describe, I did come across an old Chiltons Truck Manual in a used bookstore yesterday that does show pictures of the type of power steering you described used on trucks.  All it had was remove/replace procedures though.  Also, it only showed one cylinder not 2.  Additionally, I noticed it did have some front in alignment spec references to M300/M375 in it.   Hate to say it, but I think you are going to have to do some digging on this one.  If you have a NAPA store there, try them however, they will most likely need to go to the paper books to find a listing.  You have to be careful with MH chassis'.  Parts guys automatically go to truck info and just assume it's the same.  Not always true.

Good question to the group is:  When did Dodge start making the MH chassis?

The first Dodge based Winnie was a D-22 in late 1966 (The Winniebago Story) but I have no idea when Dodge started building the MH chassis.

The setup Andrew has may be a truck chassis, not a MH chassis.  If so, this will not be the only questionable area for him.

Good luck



From: denison
Sent: 5/5/2004 8:32 AM

DaveVa78chieftain has good points. I would agree it cant be a 413-1 like the motorhomes had in 71 and later. For one thing it doesnt have the high mount water pump like the 413s did. And it looks like the fan shroud is missing, as if it wouldnt fit with the fan that is on this motor. So it might be a 440, but can anyone tell whether it is a 440-1 from a car, or a 440-3 from a truck/motorhome? The leaking power steering hose is not a layout I recall from any of the service manuals or parts catalogs - all of which were for the motohome chassis. That Pennsylvania special i.d. plate might just be the result of a court-ordered lien or bankruptcy sale. The WPTD22Sxxxx was a standard ID # form for the early winnebagos. Im not sure there were standard VINs in 1970 yet.
By the way, I would remove the fuel filter from the top of the motor and locate it near the fuel pump and on the fuel tank side of the pump, in an accessible spot, and using a clear filter to make it easy to check for clogging often. I would put a new hose section in its place near the carb, and check the clamps periodically for being snug. And the first time I had the radiator out I would install a metal line from the fuel pump to the carburetor fuel inlet, like it would have come with. While you are at it, make sure none of your wiring is going to ever come in contact with the exhaust manifold.
Thye must have been making the motorhome chassis in 1969. The Dodge Motor Home Service Manuals and parts catalogs start their coverage in 1969, which might have been under a 1969 or 1970 winnebago.



From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 5/6/2004 1:05 AM

Am I wrong that the engine size is cast into the block on the passenger
side? that should tell you the size. Lefty



From: denison
Sent: 5/6/2004 12:37 PM

The service manual shows locations for the engine size stamp - on the 318s its on the front of the block right next to the engine gasket, on the drivers side. Its only easy to find it you have the motor removed and steam cleaned. One the 440 its somewhere near the base of the distributor.