Toilet mounting..

[fasteddie313]

OK you guys are going to think I'm nuts for sure now..

I picked up this really cool "mirror china" porcelain toilet from the JY out of what I believe is an old airstream trailer, maybe late 60's early 70's IDK, but its cool..

I grabbed it a few days ago before doing any research and come to find out that mounting flanges are not standard things and it is different. The new toilet being a 4 bolt and the old a 2 bolt, but the 2 bolt holes line up dead nuts on and then of course the flange fitting diameter is wrong also..

But I'm crazy so I say "Hmmm".. I tore my old toilet apart for the base flange thing, the part that sits on the black tank flange on the floor.
I take this flange fitting part off the old toilet and chuck it up from the center out in my lathe, then I turned its OD round and to the size of the new toilet, then I faced it to make it flat..
Of Course I did a lot of cleaning first..

Now I have myself a 2 bolt flange adaptor that fits my black tank flange on the bottom and the mirror china toilet on the top, so I drill it to make it a 4 bolt adaptor.. It seals up real good actually, fits the toilet and the flange very nicely, success....

BUT herein lies the problem, it's all wiggly n crap because it sits on the flange and not really onto the floor, its only stability comes from the flange and that's not too stable, it is almost like a bobble head but not quite that bad..

So I really don't know what I'm doing and likely just wasted a lot of my time dinking with something that's not going to work out, at least it was a cool opportunity to run my lathe for something useful and that part actually worked..

So what I have now is this toilet sitting on the flange all sealed real nice but the flange and my adaptor have this toilet's "base" sitting like 1/4" off of the actual floor, and the "base" is only like 1/2" bigger around OD than the flange, it's a pedestal looking thing..

So what my plan is now is to make a board that fits snugly around the tank flange in the right thickness for the toilet base to actually sit down onto the floor and give it some stability.. But I don't know what I'm doing and my efforts are likely futile doing stupid crazy things that probably shouldn't be attempted..

What I'd like to know is what method is responsible for toilet base stability in correct applications/instalations? What part hooks to/sits on what that is supposed to make it more like sitting on a fixed object and less like the little horses on a spring at the park?

Do you think raising the floor thickness around the tank flange to match the toilet-adaptor-flange-floor spacing dimensions is the way to go to where the toilet comes down tight to the flange and the floor at the same time?

And there is another rub..
The way it is now the toilet comes down tight onto the flange, great sealing, but does not come down tight to the floor, so it's unsatisfactorily wiggly..
Then if I shim the floor to where the toilet comes down tight to the floor then it may not come down tight to the flange anymore, be stable, but not seal as well?

Is the preferred method to make the toilet hit the floor and the flange at the same time in like equilibrium spacing/shimming in compromise between stability and sealing?  If so how is flooring finish thickness accounted for (like carpet)?
Who had the bright idea to put carpet under a toilet anyway?

I should probably just throw the whole thing away and go get a correct direct replacement toilet like a sane person shouldn't I? But this one is way cool, coolest one I found, so I like it.. And it's fun to customize things..

I'll pop some pics when the the phone gets back from work with the GF..

[M & J]

 

[lemortede]

Ill be honest, I would like at replacing the flange in the floor that does into the tank.

[Rickf1985]

I agree, get the correct flange or at least a flange adapter. the flange mounts to the floor and the toilet mounts to the flange. once the flange gasket compress's the toilet is against the floor. That is how it is in mine.

[fasteddie313]

I think it's going to be a fail, incompatible.
The air stream flange is more of an integral part of the floor, flush with it, while the HR flange is above the floor and seems to be designed to be "mated with" rather than "mounted to"..


Oh well, it was worth the shot other than all the work cleaning stuff before I could mess with it, I'll just stick with OEM.. I thought they would all just be the same..

[Rickf1985]

So build a spacer out of Masonite the same thickness as the adapter flange and then get a flange gasket and you should be fine. If you cannot find a flange gasket then black RTV will work, just make sure you do not get it on the flush valve.

[fasteddie313]

Here is the problem..
The flange, something like 7.061, just a hair over 7"..



The toilet base, looks like 7.537, just a hair over 7 1/2"

That pic is with the made flange adaptor on it.. 2 T slot bolts for the floor flange and 2 carriage bolts for the adaptor, sealed up great (as far as I can tell) with butyl putty, I believe the adaptor is sound..


The toilet base being only 1/2" bigger OD than the flange doesn't give it much to stabilize on. It would only ride on 1/4" all the way around if I was to make a shim for it between the floor and toilet base.. You think that would do the trick?


The base of the toilet comes down to about 3/8" from the floor when it's mounted on the flange.


How tight does the foam rubber flange seal need to be? Like can I afford to use up a portion of the bolts clamping force on the base to floor spacer or do I need all of the tightening force onto the flange itself?


I suppose I'll test it with shims but this is geting to be more hassle than it's worth..

[Rickf1985]

The gasket does not NEED to be real tight but you can crank it down within reason. I do see your point though and I think you may have a problem with that toilet. I would like to have seen the original mounting in the Airstream.

[DRMousseau]

TYPICAL mounting, is a flange firmly bolted to the floor and the toilet base SHOULD rest solidly on the floor when bolted to the flange. This insures that a good seal is always maintained between flange and toilet, and adequate stability is provided by the two flange bolts. Sometimes, but not always, the flange is recessed into the floor depending on flange design and clearance issues of toilet base.

MOST toilets have a large base "foot" that is in stable contact on the floor. With only two flange bolts in the base, the large contact "foot" usually provide enough stability to keep the toilet in contact to the floor. The flange DOES NOT provide a strong attachment to the floor. Tighten a flange too much and it will break. If a toilet base is not broad enough to be stable on the floor, it will beak the flange also. A toilet mounted on the carpet, will be unstable enough to break the flange. Older metal flanges were usually cast, brittle and rather weak. Newer plastic flanges are more flexible and forgiving, but still have no strength to prevent breakage.

Your unusual and non-typical "replacement" toilet, with a very small base, has FOUR holes! Two provide stable seal contact with the flange, and the other two provide a solid mount of the base THRU the flange to the floor for contact stability. This insures that strength and stability is not entirely on the weak flange. Your issue with good seal contact, shouldn't be a problem with a standard foam seal as shown, if minimal clearance issues are maintained. Most all flanges and the corresponding face on toilet bases are pretty standard and allow for reasonable tolerances.

Seems you should probably recess your flange a bit for this mount, OR if reasons of floor thickness or tank/flange clearance issues prohibit this, then you'll have to increase the floor thickness around the flange to support the toilet base. Those additional two mounting bolts should go thru the floor and may not be practical depending on the accessible space you have below the floor in this area. You may have to rely on a lag bolt or studded lag secured into the flooring.

I might suggest a decorative metal "base" plate to rest your new toilet on. A broader ring rather than a thin 3/8" spacer. It's a dreary day today, maybe I'll stop by and look over some of these issues a bit later since your only "a country mile" away.

[fasteddie313]

Sure thing if you want to, I don't think I have any special plans today.. Shoot me a text/call or whatever when you're ready for directions..

[rustyzman]

     If I may suggest, make a suitable base riser for stability that is a bit thicker than you need (say 1/2"-3/4" thick).  Plastic, aluminum, stainless steel, Teak, whatever you can find that is suitable in strength and water resistance, just in case.  Use the two extra bolt holes to bolt to the floor for rigidity if possible (expanding anchors if needed and no underside access).         
     Instead of the rubber seal, use a simple toilet wax ring.  It will account for and conform to just about anything gap or space you want.  Plus they come in a few thicknesses.   Judging by your picture, it appears that you do not have a blade style flush valve near the bottom of the toilet, so interference should not be an issue. 

     Not seeing it in person, this might be the route I would take.  With enough time and effort you could probably make it work.  Plus you can use your lathe more if it has enough swing and chuck capacity for the diameter of the adapter!

[fasteddie313]

Well that was fun.  DRMousseau and I had a good time checking out camper stuff, at least I did..

He even wanted to see the junkyard so we wound up out there and inspected the flange that this toilet came from.
Lo and behold the flange is pretty much the same as my HR flange, the same dimensions.. The difference is though in the way it seals, this toilet does not seal to the inner bowl like shape of the floor flange, instead it seals around the top of the flange..

In my pic above on the flange where it says "fastened to floor" on it is where the seal ring for this toilet goes around.. Same flange, different seal, different sealing method, sealed to the same flange in a different location. Instead of the foam rubber seal sitting down into the cupped part of the floor flange it seals to the top face of it just inside the bolt holes.

It's hard to explain but I think I know how to make it work now..

[fasteddie313]

Also rustyzman - I like you idea of expanded anchors, I'll look into that, see what I can get.

I can swing plenty over the bed to turn that but I don't know if I can chuck up something that big, and I may no longer need a spacer now that I know how this works..

[Rickf1985]

I think that is how most RV toilets seal, with a flat flange gasket. Mine does. And my old one did.

[fasteddie313]

I think that is how most RV toilets seal, with a flat flange gasket. Mine does. And my old one did.

So NOT like the one in my pics?

[Rickf1985]

Not the ones I have seen. The toilet usually has enough of a funnel to be well inside the drop pipe and since there is no trap there should never be a backup. The ones I have dealt with were a flat foam gasket shaped just like the flange.