1972 Cabana, Help me start her up?

[Rickf1985]

Here is another that corroborates that.

http://www.ehow.com/list_7643750_413-1972-truck-motor-specifications.html

And I did not even get into this one but it has all kinds of info on 413's.

http://www.netcarbook.com/chrysler-413-engine-specs

[hemi354az]

Hey Rick, thanks for your prompt replies. I had seen those same links. I've been looking for 413 and 440 data for several years now. I have found some sheets, Brochures, Op Manual, and one SAE Paper, that were produced by Chrysler Corp. I'm trying to get those together to share with the Dodge Forum here. Perhaps the 413-1 "name" has been cornfused with the HT413-1, -2, and -3 engines that were used in Medium and Big Dodge Trucks, and the "regular" 413 Chrysler Corp CAR engine. Jan and Dean (?) did not help with The Little Old Lady from Pasadena  W% .

These links are very informative:

http://www.olddodges.com/          Have to click on the Big Truck then there are MANY things to click.

http://www.sweptline.com/hist/bigtrucks.html    More Data and History of Big Dodge Trucks.

http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2005/10/01/hmn_feature13.html      It was partly derived from the May 10, 1960 presentation by H.L.Welch, Assistant Chief Engineer - Power Plant, and R.S.Rarey, Assistant Chief Engineer - Engine Design of the Engineering Division CHRYSLER CORP to the Chicago Section of the SAE  titled DODGE TRUCK HEAVY DUTY V-8 ENGINES (which is available as SAE Paper S257, if you can get SAE Papers). All the charts, graphs, etc in the Hemmings Article are from the SAE Paper.

The MOST interesting to me so far is a small Booklet #81-770-7550-A, dated 1970, titled Chrysler V-8 Industrial Engines H and HT SERIES MODELS OPERATING MANUAL, that I got on E-bay. In that Booklet (produced by Chrysler Corp) it describes all the DIFFERENT "Chrysler 8-cylinder Industrial Engines" components, including the statements, ""H" indicates light duty operation. "HB" indicates medium duty operation. "HC" indicates high compression medium duty operation. "HT" indicates heavy duty operation. On Models HT-361 and HT-413 the exhaust valves are stellite faced sodium filled. On Models HB-361, HC-361, HB-413 and HC-413 the exhaust valves are stellite faced with solid stems.".

Those CHRYSLER CREATED papers, booklets and brochures about engines available in their Medium and Big Trucks seem to say there were at least 3 "levels" of the 413 Chrysler/Dodge engine. The car 413, the Motorhome 413, and the Medium/Big HT413, and that only those engines designated HT had the sodium filled valves. Thus I don't accept some "lists" that do not have some visible Chrysler Corp Published identification. There has been a ton of "mis-information" about these engines over the years since 1978 when they went out of production. For a laugh Google about which way the distributor turns on the early Gear Driven Camshafts verse the late 71 or early 72 Chain Driven Camshafts. There is a Marine Website about the left and right rotation BOAT 413s and 440s that is hilarious.

The sodium filled valves have a fatter stem that the "regular" car head 413 exhaust valves, as well as being about an inch longer. Perhaps someone can find the difference in stem diameter and/or valve diameter in one of the Melling, TRW, or other valve manufacturer's Catalogs.

As a late night brain teaser . . . what engine was used in the First Production Run of the US Army M-113  Armored Personnel Carrier first used in Vietnam ? Sleep tight. Lou (FMC#120)

[Rickf1985]

I am in the process of cleaning out my office right now and once I get to my library of machinist reference material I will have a lot more info. This was all the info I needed for doing the machining work on the heads and blocks of any and all American cars. It will be a few days before I get to that and then it will not happen until I get it all back up on the shelves. I will do my best to remember though.

[Rickf1985]

I am in the process of cleaning out my office right now and once I get to my library of machinist reference material I will have a lot more info. This was all the info I needed for doing the machining work on the heads and blocks of any and all American cars. It will be a few days before I get to that and then it will not happen until I get it all back up on the shelves. I will do my best to remember though.

I believe the M-113 used the 283 Chevy.

[DRMousseau]

Weird,... but for some reason I have the Chrysler Commando 360, I think, or something like that, I think it's jus that "Commando" designation I got in mind. But I recall the guys talkin' about the Screamin' Detroit Diesels too.

I kinda hated all the little variances of engine models, ya definitely needed a library for each manufacturer and when ya add the reference materials like Rick has AND the personal notes your own and others,.... well, that often made for a BIG library!!! Still, ya frequently found a mish-mash of combined parts in some used and/or reworked engines, of which a few bad combos often resulted in eventual disastrous failures!!!

I remember a friend being called out when a defeated opponent pointed to the emblem on the side of his Malibu, with accusations of misrepresentation!!! I know the block WAS the true original,... but nothing else was!

And jus WHAT do you call an AMF Sportster after adding a ton of welded reinforcement to the cases so you can run big jugs and '66 Shovelheads on it???

And now Classic trucks and RV's that have been hangin' out for decades??? UGH!!!!

[Cabana72]

Alright, y'all helped me start her up! 

Ended up being fuel.  I got all the ignition parts, but worked on fuel first.  I rigged up an electric fuel pump to completely drain the tank.  Added 5 gallons fresh fuel with some seafoam.  Pumped another gallon to waste to flush the line.


Interestingly enough that wasn't good enough. No start.  i??
Looked down in the carb while gassing, see no fuel.  Popped the fuel inlet to the carb, no fuel squirting while cranking.  Hmmm.  Bad fuel pump? Plugged week old filter?


So I thought Eff it, and wired the electric fuel pump (cheap low pressure/low flow) inline.  I know these pumps are usually put low and close to the tank (pushers, not pullers).  But I didn't feel like rigging up power back there, so I just put it right in front of the carb where I could run it off switched 12v from a jumpstart battery and aligator clips.  Badda Boom Badda Bing.  Started right up.  Ran for a few mintues and I decided to turn off the electric pump, ran fine.  Cranked several more times all without any more help from the electric pump, fine.  Even made y'all a short video:

[smg id=7671 type=av]
And here you can get a quick peek at the outside, and listen to her purr away from all angles.
[smg id=7672 type=av]
So, anybody know what gives?  If this is the same problem it's been having, then I guess after it sits, the mech fuel pump just can't prime the lines/carb?  Do carbs dry out / drain that quickly, like a day or 3?  Do worn out fuel pumps do this?  Other thoughts:
1.  Leak somewhere sucks air, or lets lines drain that wouldn't otherwise?
2.  Battery sucks, it's new, but only 650 CCA, which seems pretty low to me, maybe it's just not enough to spin the starter, turn over the engine and spin the fuel pump. What do y'all use for CCA?
3.  Seafoam really is magic?
4.  Somebody was a DA and had dumped some of the original dirty fuel in the tank on accident and it just wouldn't burn no matter what.  The electric fuel pump was a red herring, it would have started fine without it on the very next attempt?
5.  There is a slow fuel leak from the front of the carb.  Drop / 2 seconds.  It looks like it's coming from the "Accelerator pump adjusting screw".  Perhaps this leak drains the carb dry as it sits between my visits to the rig, necessitating such a difficult priming?  I can post a vid of this leak if anyone thinks it relevant?

So we got her started again, but she's not home yet.  Let's continue this thread until I can get it moved.  Then we can move on to a new thread with a short tour and start the rehabbing.  I'll raise a couple more thoughts tomorrow, gotta sleep sometimes...

[LJ-TJ]

 :)rotflmao :)rotflmao Good show on getting her going. Welcome to the world of Classic Winnebago's. As you can see the adventure has just begun.

[Rickf1985]

My guess is first off you need to rebuild the carb, no two ways about it. It is full of varnish and you say it is leaking so that is one thing that will need to b done. Plan on a new fuel pump, you have no idea how old that one is and if it is not moving much gas then it is toast. Pull the line off of the carb and put it in a can and crank it over and see if you get solid strong spurts of gas, if not pump is bad. The valves in the fuel pump could be gummed up letting gas run all the way back to the tank plus not let it pump efficiently up to the carb, see replace pump. Sea foam works great, it does not work instantly. It will have to run through the system for a bit to clean things out. you are going to be changing fuel filters fairly often for the first year.

[Cabana72]

Yeah, definitely plan to rebuild carb once I get her home.  Probably the only way I'll ever really understand how they work anyway.


I can't imagine that I'll replace the mechanical fuel pump.  Seems electric is a no brainer if it comes to that.


But it seems both of those can wait till she's home.  On to the other things that need to be addressed to drive her the 15 miles or so home.


1.  Tires.  They are old.  Sidewalls are checked pretty bad.  One of the fronts sat flat for a long time, so it has been replaced with a used tire that is holding air after a few tries.  The wheel got pretty rusty while it sat, and the tire shop just put a lot of gloop around the seal this time, hoping it holds.  If not I guess I'll have to pull it and clean up the rust, I guess with a wire wheel or flap disc or something.


I'm thinking of replacing the other front (made in 1996, 86, or 76!) with a used before moving this rig home.  I plan to buy new tires at some point, but want to make sure there aren't hidden problems in the rig that make it a deal breaker before just tossing over a grand at it.  A total of $70 for used tires gets it home, where I can make sure new tires will be money well spent.


I think I'll drive the duals as they are.  They have been holding air for years, and I'm thinking a blow out back there would be less disastrous.  Basically I think a front blow out could mean stranding me in the middle of a city street assuming it doesn't cause a wreck.  Maybe a rear blow out would allow limping into a parking lot to deal with it?


Tire changing:
I've changed drivers front a couple times now by jacking the frame on that side up a few inches and putting a stand under it, then jacking the suspension under the leaf spring by the axle.  But I noticed a cracked window that I don't think was there before.  I've since read that jacking a frame corner can do that.  Anybody think it's safe to jack and block the front frame cross member to lift the whole front end without any twisting?


(I'll edit in the diagram here in a sec)


Brakes, need to give them at least a rough inspection and street test.


I think our next work day is Thursday or Friday.  So assuming it will start again, and the new/used tires hold pressure Buddy Blue can get a new home, a much needed bath, and a new rehab thread.

[Rickf1985]

Jack under the axle, You will not have to raise it as high and you will not be twisting the frame.

[hemi354az]

One solution . . .


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holley-4160-carburetor-DODGE-TK-MOTORHOME-413cid-electric-choke-4-barrel-carb-/331747718127?hash=item4d3db473ef:g:1nsAAOSw0JpV6jtI&vxp=mtr


Lou(FMC#120)

[Cabana72]

Alright folks, we're getting closer.  Had another short work day and made 2 steps forward and no steps back.


Started up fairly easily.  Had to use the electric pump to prime the carb, but it seemed to flood it.  After sitting a bit it fired up repeatedly.  So I'm sticking with my theory it has been fuel all along, likely due to the leaky carb draining dry between work days and possibly a tired mech fuel pump and/or weak battery trying to prime the carb every cold start.


For tires I decided to go with 2 used 4 year old tires up front($70), and try to get the old rear ones to carry me home.  35 mph for 10 miles.  Still a little nervous about those rear tires, but we'll see...


I tried just jacking at the leaf spring pad in front of the axle, I could get the tire off, but did not have enough clearance to get it out of the wheel well.  Any comment on if jacking at the frame corner is safe or should/can I jack on that front frame cross piece to raise the front equally? (#4 below)
[smg id=7673]
I started looking at brakes, which initially did nothing to stop the wheel while the engine was off and the tire was jacked up.  I see no obvious abrasion or rot to the brake lines, so I just topped off the resevoir, put in about 6 ounces.  The pedal doesn't go to the floor now, and after a lot of pumping I couldn't find any leaks anywhere but I didn't get a chance to test it more than that.  Is it possible there is no leak and that much fluid just evaporated over a couple years?  I'll give it a driveway test next workday (maybe moving day?) and hope they don't need more fluid, or bleeding.


Can someone comment on the battery, it seems mighty tired whenever it's cranking.  I initially just took what was in it to the parts store and got a replacement, but it's only 650 CCA.  Is that sufficient for this big engine?

[Rickf1985]

650 CCA should be alright if you are in warm weather, it is probably borderline in cold weather. No battery is going to crank forever if you are having starting problems. Those old Dodge starters are battery killers. If you had to put that much fluid the brakes will need bleeding and that fluid went somewhere. It does not evaporate. My guess is that you will eventually see it running out of one of the wheels from a leaky wheel cylinder. Do not try to drive it until you get good brakes!!! I don't care how slow or close you are going. If they go out you have a serious issue, your choice of brakes at that point will be the car in front of you or the pole next to it!
As far as jacking on the frame I will leave that one to the older Dodge RV guys but I would not jack in the middle of the crossmember, that is too much weight for that and even if you did get it to go up it would probably fall over sideways off the jack.

[Cabana72]

W00T!
She has a new home!  Even spent a couple hours cleaning the worst of the moss, lichen, and mildew off!
[smg id=7682]


Man that brake bleeding job was a bear!  How the heck are you supposed to visually check and refill that reservoir, just 2 inches from the roof of the wheel well?  I think I dumped as much new fluid on the ground as I got in it, just filled it to overflowing every so often.  There's gotta be a better way.


I guess that brings this thread to a close.  I'm certain the starting problem was always due to the carb always needing priming due to it's leak, and the mech pump just wasn't up for it.  A rebuilt carb and electric fuel pump oughtta solve that for good.


I'll start a new thread on her restoration and maintenance now that she's home.  Thanks again for all the help!

[Rickf1985]

Other than the color that is not a bad looking rig, is it all fiberglass?

[Cabana72]

The doors bumpers and ladder are steel, rest is fiberglass.  And I LOVE the color, whatchu talkin' about?  Even almost matches the year of manufacture NC license plate I put on it! 

[legomybago]

Alright you made it home! Palms get sweaty? 

[sasktrini]

That's awesome!  Congrats!  Fibreglass shell is  … probably very little water intrusion!  And the color… I kinda dig it, especially all clean!

[Rickf1985]

Sorry, I am just not the Baby blue type of guy I guess. i??

[M & J]

It's not much lighter than the blue in the jeans in your avatar so...... 

[legomybago]

Im a fan of that color blue on the late 60's and early 70's Ford pickups. Powder blue baby W%

[Rickf1985]

Sorry, I am just not the Baby blue type of guy I guess. i??

Those jeans were that color due to it being -8 when that picture was taken! Smart azz! And that is faded blue and NOT the kind you buy that way,actually work faded.

[M & J]

   :)rotflmao

[Cabana72]

Those jeans were that color due to it being -8 when that picture was taken!

Do they turn yellow in spring, and bright red in on a 100 degree summer day?


Ok, ok, just having some fun.


So a question of board etiquette.  Do I make a new, long, multi-faceted thread with all the questions pertaining to this rig, or do I make a separate thread for each individual subject?  I think single subject threads are the preference here, right?

[Oz]

If the entire rig is a "project" then individual sub-projects don't have to be posted separately.  Note that a "project" is one which is instructional in nature.  Of course, it's expected there will be questions about some aspects of it, but the idea behind that board is a "show and tell" of how you did it, not a catch-all for questions about how to do them.  I hope that clarifies things.