1972 Cabana, Help me start her up?

[Cabana72]

Hey folks, thought I'd throw out an introduction as I've been lurking around the forum for a month or so.  I recently acquired a 1972 Cabana (M300 chasis, 413 engine, 25').  The price couldn't be beat.  Basically, she's mine for whatever it takes to get her moving.  My buddy just wants it to go to a good home while he gets divorced.  She's actually in pretty amazing condition, carolina blue and white 2 tone.  Interior in drive away and go camping condition.  I'll definitely show off some pics when I get her home and polished.  Supposedly was owned by NASCAR driver Buddy Arington, so presumably had a decent maintenance life in her formative years.  It's just she's sat a lot.  I know she ran from VA to NC in 2006.  Since then she's moved no more than 20 miles in 3 trips, and not at all in the last 3 years. 


We're working around the demands of the Ex-to-be, so I haven't had the chance to just get her running AND moved.  I get her running, but we're forced out before we can do a final check and get her rolling.  Then when I come back, no start.  I'll admit I'm no gearhead, but I grew up in a Jeep family so I've turned my fair share of wrenches.  Carbs and "classic" ignition stuff is a weakness of mine, never having owned a carb on anything other than a weedeater (and a blackfriday deal on a new weedeater is almost cheaper and a lot faster than carb rebuild kit for a weedeater I always hated anyway!)


Feel free to throw some pointers or tips at me.  Or if ya'll are more of the "we ain't gonna hold yer hand boy" flavor, heck, throw that at me instead.  It'll just motivate me and make me feel part of this wiley old RV community


So here's a brief history, limited just to the make it run category.  I think all the obvious peripheral stuff like fluids, belts etc are good, but if something stands out, please point it out.
First no start no nothing, of course battery was dead.  Replaced. A bit of starter fluid in the carb and she roared to life and ran and rumbled. After about 5 minutes she was warmed up and sounded pretty decent!  Shut down and restarted a few times fine. 

AFter a week of dealing with things like tires, she wouldn't start.  Just sputtered once, like maybe each cylinder fired once and immediately died.  Everytime.  Every once in a while the starter didn't engage right.  You could hear the starter whir, but nothing else.  But when the starter did work but the engine wouldn't catch, it didn't sound like it was starving, it sounded like some electronic kill switch on a modern engine.  A week later replaced the ballast resistor(learned something new that day!).  Roared to life!  Bump the key and she caught everytime.  Warm, she sounded amazing, I'd say she purred like a kitten, more like purred like a saber tooth tiger!  No more starter whirring sounds.


A week later, no start.  Nothing.  No catch, no sputter, nothing.  Spark was good a week ago, air is everywhere with the filter off, so we chased fuel.  Replaced fuel filter.  Pumped the tank dry and discarded 5 gallons of dark cruddy looking well aged red bourbon colored fuel.  Primed the fuel lines with new fuel with a hand pump.  Cleaned the screen basket filter at the carb inlet.  She roared to life.


A few days later I noticed a small amount of fuel just beneath the carb.  I went to tighten the fitting at the carb inlet, it was seized and when it broke loose it twisted, crimped and split the fuel line.    Patched the fuel line with a short segment of rubber and left for the day.


Back at it now, and it won't start.  Not the fire and die like before the ballast resistor.  Every 20 seconds or so maybe 1 cylinder fires that's it.  Starter fluid, a cap of gas in the carb, nothing.  Of course I'm keeping the battery charged, and/or jump starting it.  I've added 5 more gallons of good fuel, primed the line too.  Fuel leaks out of my rubber line patch if I loosen while starting so I'm assuming the fuel pump works fine.


And now I'll share my ignorance about carbs.  Right at the end this last time that square flap over 2 of the barrels got stuck open.  Yeah, I don't know what it's called.  Yes I've downloaded the manual for the carb because I know I'm going to need it, but figured time spent establishing a rapport here would be as good as RingTFM first.  I'm guessing there was a spring keeping it closed that popped off?


I'm hoping to make her run, move her to a more friendly workspace, then do all the deferred maintenance stuff there.  Plugs, wires, tune carb, possible electric fuel pump, etc.  So while I know that stuff can't hurt, I'd really like to put it off till I get her home.


Any suggestions?  It's not like I can just go find a Cabana forum, and some of ya'll have the same chasis so figured this was a good internet home for this project.  It's getting frustrating getting her running so smooth only to have nothing a few days later.  I left out a couple of the less relevant times this happened too.  I'm close to having it towed, even though nobody in my town will touch it so I'll have to call in a wrecker or lowboy from 45 miles away.


I guess I'll give it 1 or 2 more goes, first verifying fuel, then chasing spark.  Obviously I might need a better understanding of carbs, but heck on the spark side, I don't even know what points are, other than I think I have them!

[Cabana72]

Hey there Paris, awesome to meet another Cabana, don't see much of them on the net.  I could totally see myself fulltiming in this ol' gal in a couple of years after I get her sorted.  BTW, I have the coach manual and most of the other docs (sadly no chasis manual yet).  They are pretty sad and moldy, but I'm planning on digitizing them soon.  Be glad to share if you don't have them for yours.


I'm sure I can chase through the ignition system, I just don't get how it could be perfect/dead/perfect/dead.  I guess there's always gremlins in classics, and lots of 'em after they sit for a while.

[LJ-TJ]

Well lets start with WELCOME aboard. Our famous opening line is" the stupidest question you can ask here is the one you DON'T ask." Hm? This is just a guest but it sounds like your spark is breaking down. Your obviously getting fuel Ok if you put fuel in the tank and she'll start and run for a bit. If you've all ready replaced the ballast resistor then I'd consider replacing the Electronic Ignition box a long with the voltage regulator. Your probably going to spend around $80.00 dollars for both. Just before I'd do that I'd replace the coil. Seems a lot of the lads are having problems with their coils breaking down even the new cheep off shore shoot.  i?? Just something to consider.

[Rickf1985]

Welcome, I think you are headed in the right direction with what you have done so far. I agree with TJ on the electronic ignition. If you are spraying ether and dumping gas down the carb and it is not firing then you are not getting consistent spark which sounds like your hit or miss description. The flap you describe in the carb is the choke and that will have a big impact on it starting on it's own. It's not working will also give the hit and miss condition. Even if you just hold the pedal down and push that flap closed with your finger and let up on the pedal with it closed that will help get you started. You may have to hold the flap if the linkage is off but with the flap closed you will get the rich mixture you need to start. As soon as it starts let go of the flap.

[legomybago]

Clean and adjust the ignition points (or replace) and replace the condenser. Read up on the web about them and how they work since you don't know anything about them.
You mentioned REALLY bad looking fuel in the tanks  W% the carb is probably full of gunk too.
Can't wait to see some pics.

[LJ-TJ]

Hey Rick brings up a good point. If your sitting in the drivers seat looking down at the carb and the butterfly at the is open with your foot off the gas, then  it's not choking. Take your finger and close the butterfly and hold the butterfly closed with your finger. It should start. The second it starts let off on the butterfly and she should keep going.Bingo you need to adjust the choke. Chances are you have a thermoquad carb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzNhCLg9veg

[DRMousseau]

I agree that your headed in the right direction,... heck, ya brought it to life! And when it finally DID run, all seemed fine, right? Started consistently,... ran good, until,..... well, back to square one!!! And since ya've only gotten a pop or two since, ya have some suspicions,... either fuel or spark.

Since ya had a good few runs,... it would seem the spark part is ok, MAYBE! It's a pain getting' at the sparkplugs, and since passenger side plugs are usually more accessible, pull the four plugs on that side and check 'em out a bit. If it really ran good, they should be clean with a dry light brown color. But they might have a lot of deposits on 'em, and maybe even darker colored. Jus note what they look like, and either clean 'em good or replace 'em with new. Make sure the gap is same on those four.

Now ya know ya got at least FOUR good plugs that should fire up if ya got spark and fuel. And since it ran so good once, we're gonna assume the rest of the ignition system is good enough to get those four plugs sparkin'. NOW,... it should fire up with a shot of that starting fluid. Don't be pumpin' on the gas pedal yet,.... jus squirt a shot or two and hit the starter. Ya should get more poppin' and a short run at least,... if not, then we'll suspect some other ignition problems. Be CAREFUL of that open carb!!! Some ignition problems can cause that backfire thru the carb and that's ALWAYS exciting!!!! So keep your face clear when cranking the starter after sprayin that fluid stuff in there! Now,... if it doesn't fire up for few seconds, then we'll look at some other ign and electrical possibilities. But if it does (and I suspect it will), maybe it will stay runnin' again, or maybe it'll die after using up what ya sprayed in there.

Back to carb and fuel system for a moment. It sounds like the fuel system was really gross from setting for so long. And ya did a lot to get clean fuel TO the carburetor. But ya might not be getting the fuel THRU the carb now after doing all that. Were hoping the carb didn't get plugged up by anything that was in the fuel system that might have come loose and now gotten somewhere inside the carb.

Ya said ya got fuel pressure because it will leak out if ya loosen the line at the carb inlet while cranking the engine,... so far, good!!! That should have filled the carb after a few moments of cranking. So WITH IGN OFF,... look down into the carb barrels, if necessary, hold that square butterfly open so you can see everything way down inside, and press the accelerator. You should see and notice fuel squirting deep inside the carb each time you press the accelerator. Don't pump too much or you'll "flood" the engine and it won't start,... so here ya have fuel AND spark but you'll have to wait till it "dries out" a bit. A flooded engine will pop some,... and might BACKFIRE, cause there's a LOT of fuel in there... but it won't start till it dries out a little. Keep pumping,... and it floods more.

IF,... you can't see any fuel squirt inside the carb by pressing the gas pedal,... then there's probably no fuel IN the carb. Yup,... if ya got fuel pumping into it, but nothing coming out, THEN ya got some problems that may require a carb cleaning and rebuild.

[LJ-TJ]

Yeah! What he said D:oH!

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Hey there Paris, awesome to meet another Cabana, don't see much of them on the net.  I could totally see myself fulltiming in this ol' gal in a couple of years after I get her sorted.  BTW, I have the coach manual and most of the other docs (sadly no chassis manual yet).  They are pretty sad and moldy, but I'm planning on digitizing them soon.  Be glad to share if you don't have them for yours.
I'm sure I can chase through the ignition system, I just don't get how it could be perfect/dead/perfect/dead.  I guess there's always gremlins in classics, and lots of 'em after they sit for a while.

Chassis manual

You need to decode the VIN and see if you have a 71 or 72 chassis.  Because they had to order the chassis early, many RV mfg's place this years RV (e.g. 72) on the previous years chassis (e.g. 71).

For everyones reference:

71-72 M300 is a 413 with points based ignition (2 wire ballast reasistor verses the 4 wire one for electronic ignition)
Points setting: .013" - .018"
Timing: 5 degrees BTDC +/- 2.5 degrees

Carb:  Holley 4 barrel
71 chassis Holley 4150C (R-6189A)
72 chassis Holley 4160C (R-6495A)

[Rickf1985]

Well in that case replace the condensor, that will gave a hit or miss condition and also burn points  in a hurry if it is bad.

[DRMousseau]

eh,... lets get ya home, where ya get to work on this and do everything right.

Ya had it runnin' pretty good,.... the points and all the contacts in the distributor don't get much worse after setting around a long time. And neither does the timing (although vacuum hoses can crack and leak and cause some trouble here.) But not like the gunky fuel system that jus get worse over time. I really think that's gonna be a major issue right now. Really hate to see ya get into some carb work jus to get it home,.... but that's a likely possiability!!!

Although it might not hurt to cleanup those contacts, and make sure the point contacts are clean and gapped properly. That jus helps to ensure a good spark in those sparkplugs ya cleaned up. Ya got some poppin' goin' on,... I'm thinkin' your jus gonna need some fuel or a little squirt to get that poppin' consistant,... another short run, ya know?

[Cabana72]

Thanks so much for all the pointers, looking forward to getting back to it this week.  Especially now that I've joined up and have the manual

Reading through all your comments and I think I've prioritized a to-do list.

First, I'm going to look at fuel.  Replaying my memory, I can't be 100% certain that some of the dirty fuel didn't accidentally get dumped back into the tank, so I'm going to drain the tank again and start fresh there.  It'd be a good explanation that since it was running smooth, we goofed it up by mixing up the clean and dirty fuel jugs.
With 100% certain clean fuel in tank and lines:

   
• choke, can hold down to start, fix linkage
• Crank a bit to fill carb, then with ign off look down barrels, hold choke open too, pump accelerator, should see fuel squirting deep inside with each pump.  If not consider clean/rebuild carb

Then I'll chase these down in order for spark:

   
• check/gap or replace plugs, even if just on driver side to test spark
• coil
• electronic ignition box and voltage regulator, est. $80 for both
• points, clean and adjust or replace
• replace condenser

Throughout I'll keep an eye out for disconnected or aged vacuum lines.
And of course, pics for my new friends on the forum.

[DRMousseau]

Yup,... sounds good.

Make sure your getting fuel and pressure to that carb inlet. Without it, you'll have no chance of any squirtin' inside even if the carb is good.

And you'll likely find the passenger side spark plugs more accessible than drivers side.

I wouldn't suggest it,.... but I once drove the ol' Winnebago about 5 blocks with an inverted soda bottle of gas set in the cab barrels, and a loosely adjusted cap that allowed a trickle of gas into the carb. Ran rough and poorly, but got me off the road and into my drive where I could work on it. I worried about the cap coming off and losin' it in the carb, but it didn't seem likely. That problem was fixed with a new fuel pump.

[Cabana72]

You need to decode the VIN and see if you have a 71 or 72 chassis.  Because they had to order the chassis early, many RV mfg's place this years RV (e.g. 72) on the previous years chassis (e.g. 71).

For everyones reference:

Carb:  Holley 4 barrel
71 chassis Holley 4150C (R-6189A)
72 chassis Holley 4160C (R-6495A)

I am in fact a 72 chasis per vin.  This is the 413, but with a Carter Thermoquad carb.

[hemi354az]

How do you know it is a Carter Thermoquad Carb ?
On another Website (FMC Owners) fella had a new to him 1973 Motorhome that he said had an original Carter T-Quad . . . with questions about all the lines going to/from carb. Several of us supplied him pictures and diagrams for the stock Thermoquad setup. He said his didn't look like any of those at all, and implied we really didn't know what we were talking about. About a month later, someone stopped by to check on his progress (none) and discovered he had a Carter AFB square bore carb with a spread bore adapter to the 440 manifold, not a Carter T-Quad.
What was "stock" carb on 413 powered Winnies ? What about 413 powered Cabanas ? Is the intake manifold "WET" on the Motorhome 413s ? Is the intake manifold a square bore or a spread bore on the Motorhome 413s ?
The Electronic Control Module and the COIL are the two most common failures on the 440s in the FMC Motorhome. Also several have had fouled plugs after trying to get a "sitter" started. The ECM MUST also have a good ground. Be careful around the Ballast Resistor . . . IT GETS HOT !

But since this 413 powered Cabana has (stated in above entries) a conventional points/condense ignition . . . that leaves only those and the coil.
Lou (FMC#120)

[Rickf1985]

 Hm? He has checked the chassis numbers but has anyone thought that just maybe in the 40 some years past that it may have had a 440 with  a spread bore and Thermoquad on it stuffed in there? Might want to check the engine numbers before condemning him.

[DRMousseau]

It's kinda hard to know for sure jus exactly WHAT he's got. I find the 413i to be a bit strange in a '72 Winnebago,... but who knows!!!

Right now, it's jus the basics to get 'em home, where he's SURE to find a lot of joy in the discovery of "Classic Treasure" and all that's in it, not to mention the fun of gettin' it "On the Road"!!!

Now if that carb, whatever it may be, isn't gettin' fuel THRU it,... then he's gonna wanna know EXACTLY what the setup is, so we know what might be needed.

[Cabana72]

How do you know it is a Carter Thermoquad Carb ?

Well that's actually a good question.  If the rig was here I'd just go look at it.  So I looked through my manuals, equipment plate, factory installed options etc and can't find it anywhere.  So to be honest, I have no idea where I got the idea it's a thermoquad.     I dang sure got that idea in my head from somewhere though.  Maybe just because it was the only one listed on Dave's site for the m300?

At least I do know it is a 413-1 (or is that -I?).  It says so on the ID plate, sales slip, and in big red letters on the air cover...

I've got a picture of it, I'll see if I can positively ID it from that.


UPDATE, It is in fact the Holley 4160C R-6495A based on comparing a picture to my newly acquired chasis manual.  So thanks for clearing that up for me!

[DRMousseau]

Hey! A Holley!!! Jus cleaned and rebuilt mine a few weeks back!!!

The inlet USUALLY has a bronze-stone filter that many remove. Gets kinda gunked up. Although it ran, it ran poorly,.... the accelerator pump diaphragm was cracked and leaking everywhere. That's what lead me to rebuilding it. And on the opposite side, the power-valve side,... mine was sooo gooped up, it was surprising it ran at all!!!

And that 413i is indeed followed with an "i",.... for "Industrial". The 413(RB) was often found in early '60s Chryslers, But the "Industrial" jus isn't a common kinda engine I'd expect in much of anything but med and heavy commercial trucks, especially in the late '60s-'70s, and jus not nothing typical for '70s M300s with the 318 and 440 being far more common. I jus found out it was used in some C-1000 truck-tractors thru the 70's though,.... you might mention that at the parts counter when looking for engine parts.

[Rickf1985]

It is 413-1 as in numeral one. See below for specs. As a high performance engine forget it but look at the the torque spec. 445 ft/lbs. at 2400 rpm.. That is substantial.
I have seen the bronze filters in the 4160 dual feed carbs but not the standard single feed with the fuel transfer tube. I doubt you have a dual feed setup on a motor home.


Dodge 1971/72     V8- 413-1    4 BBL    4.188 X 3.75     7.5 to 1     265 @ 4000     445 fp @ 2400     Sodium Ex. Valves

Dodge 1971/72    V8- 413-3    4 BBL    4.188 X 3.75    7.5 to 1    238 @ 3600    407 fp @ 2000    Sodium Ex. Valves

Dodge 1973    V8- 413-3    4 BBL    4.188 X 3.75    7.5 to 1    190 @ 3200    355 fp @ 2000    Sodium Ex. Valves

Dodge 1976    V8- 413-3    4 BBL    4.188.X 3.75    7.54 to 1    175 @ 3200    325 fp @ 2000 

[legomybago]

I didn't know they made a 413 is 76', 175 hp, what a turd. 

[DRMousseau]

Maybe that's why they weren't so common in the '70s. I knew the later ones had the bigger 3.75 stroke, and the earlier 60's ones had seen rare use on the strip here and there, not sure they were the industrial though.

My carb is indeed a single feed, I too removed the bronze stone and spring,... got a good filter in the system already, jus before the regulator. Pinched an o-ring on the crossover tube when I reassembled it, and had a SECOND leak, that was easily accessible and taken care of while mounted on the engine. Glad it was work for someone else!!! Ugh!!!

[Rickf1985]

1976 is after they changed from gross horsepower rating to net horsepower ratings. That came in about the same time as emissions controls so it was a double whammy on the ratings, Both real loss and rated loss added together on paper. See article below for a better explanation.

http://ateupwithmotor.com/terms-technology-definitions/gross-versus-net-horsepower/

[hemi354az]

Hey Rick, What is the SOURCE of the 413-x HP and Torque ratings in your above Post ?
Thx for responding, Lou.

[Rickf1985]

Hey Rick, What is the SOURCE of the 413-x HP and Torque ratings in your above Post ?
Thx for responding, Lou.

From here, http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/651550/413-motorhome-engine-s.html, ninth post down but I do notice that Doc Fiberglass has questioned those numbers. He is a well thought of authority on older dodge engines but he does not come up with any other numbers and those numbers are right around average for the big truck motors of the times. I will check my old machinist manuals when I dig them out in the next day or two, they will have all of the specs in them.