El Ninò Got Me - Water in every opening

[CoastalWinnebago]

Well here in Northern California we got hit really hard last night with a storm.  I just purchased my 73 Brave 18', and found this morning that it has some significant leaks.


Both windows in the coach above the couch and dinette are wet in the corners.  The worst part was the significant amount of water that came in through the AC unit.  It wasn't just a few drips but quite a bit of water.  Seems that the roof is sagging in that area and the water pours in when I move the RV. 


Unfortunately its pouring again tonight, and the tarp I ordered arrives tomorrow. I cleaned/dried the water out earlier, but I suspect I will have a lot of wood rot and repair to address.

[tiinytina]

Yup Welcome to the world of owning a "classic"...  But most of us are here because we enjoy fixing them up as much as we enjoy camping in them! 

Tina

[LJ-TJ]

Yep! Sucks. If the water is pouring in........I've never herd of an easy fix. However there is some great information on here on replacing the roof if you elect to go that route. Hm?

[Rickf1985]

I would imagine tarps are hard to come by right now in that area.

[CoastalWinnebago]

Has anyone tried this method to reverse the sagging effect around the AC unit then reseal?  (source: http://rvtravel.com/publish/rvdoctor381.shtml )


"It will first be necessary to determine the rafter spacing. On most soft roofs the rafter positions are very evident. Measure the distance between the centers of each rafter. It will usually be either 16 or 24 inches. Next, completely remove the air conditioner. Uhh, be sure all the electricity is properly turned off and locked out first! Keep in mind, the rubber seal will, in all likelihood, be ruined when removing the unit, so be sure to have a replacement on hand before starting. [/size]TAKE CARE when lifting the unit off the roof. Old sealants may cause the unit to stick to the roofing material often creating tears in the metal. Be sure to clean off the old gasket and any sealant from around the 14-inch opening and remove any staples through the roofing material around the opening. Next, cut a piece of 3/4-inch plywood -- 28 inches wide by however long is necessary to span two adjacent rafters. Usually there is one rafter fairly close to the opening and another, 16 or 24 inches away. Position the plywood flat on the roof, centered directly over the opening, making sure it straddles one rafter in front of the opening and one rafter aft of the opening. Next, from inside the RV, mark around the opening. Cut and remove that 14-inch square opening out of the plywood. You will now have approximately a 28" X 34" piece of plywood with an approximate 14-inch square cutout somewhere in the middle. Now, mark and cut the plywood in half longitudinally down a center line resulting in two, 14" X 34" pieces of plywood with a "U" shaped opening in each piece. Insert each piece into the roof cavity through the 14-inch hole, underneath the sheet metal yet on top of the existing rafters. Slide each piece into position on either side of the 14" opening taking care not to disrupt the roof insulation in the process. After both pieces are in position under the metal roof and on top of the rafters, secure the roof metal to the reinforcement material around the 14-inch opening only. Next, apply new sealant and a new gasket, and then reinstall the air conditioner. This repair will not only effectively raise that sunken mounting position, but will also provide a much better supporting foundation for the weight of the air conditioner and possibly eliminate future water leaks."

[Rickf1985]

It sounds interesting but it also sounds like you may be trying to stretch the roof a little higher than where it was originally and that will not happen without damage. Trying to get 3/4 inches between the roof and the rafters is going to be a lot harder than it sounds. There is also going to be a sharp drop off at the edge of the plywood so if you try this be sure to put at least a 45 degree bevel around the edge of the plywood. Routing a slow taper would be even better.

[Rickf1985]

For right now I would build a floor to ceiling jack out of a two by four and a cross piece on top and just push up the roof a half inch at a time until it is above grade. Be sure to push against the lowest rafter.

[LJ-TJ]

Ok! So what you should understand is there really isn't a structure under were the air conditioner sits or at least nothing of substance. I like the idea of the 3/4 inch plywood but I'd go with a full 4x8 sheet and lay it cross wise (side to side) paint it with a rubber roof type material and tape the seam with seam tape. Over kill yes but I wouldn't think you'd see any stress on the plywood with the weight of the air conditiones. Plus the bonus is as long as you stayed on the plywood you could sit up there and use it for a deck for watching N.A.S.C.A.R. races. Hm? If the picture shows up. Notice there's no structure to attach to other than the outside rails.

[Rickf1985]

There are no rafters? What holds the roof up when you walk on it? I guess my knowledge of the older stuff is lacking. 85 is the oldest I have worked on and they all had rafters of sorts. Some were only 2x2's on one of the slide ins I had but they were there.

[CoastalWinnebago]

LJ-TJ:


Wow I am very surprised to find that there is no support up there that runs across.  I thought there was at least 2 steel beams somewhere that run across for overall box support. 


I like the idea of a sheet to lay side to side, then cover with plastic, seal with seam tape, and hope for the best.  At least the distribution of the load from the AC would be spread across a larger, more stable area. 


Rick: Good call on a ad hoc cross beam, ill attempt that right away. Along with the new tarp it may stop the water ingress.  However the ceiling is already so damaged it maybe won't matter much. 

[d21 special]

The roof is laminated veneer to Styrofoam with the steel glued on top and the interior ceiling glue below with no chance to sandwich anything in between.  It'll need to be stripped and replaced.  Made mine up with 2x2 2x3 and 2x4.  I left 30" flat in the centre and sloped all to 1.5" on the edges. She now slopes to the front and back and to the sides with 30" flat spot in the centre for the a/c.  All on 2' centres, insulated and covered with 1/2" G1S ply and cover with EDPM membrane

[khantroll]

I recently had to do this with mine. The roof on mine consisted of a trim of 1x2s around the perimeter of the roof, with a sandwich of Luan, high density foam, more Luan, and an aluminum sheet. The Luan/foam/Luan combo was stapled to the trim ring, then stapled to the outside skin, and then the aluminum sheet was folded over the edges and screwed through the side. I also had two steel support beams (like pig iron or angle iron) that went before and after the air conditioner. They had holes in them, and a there was a piece of flat stock inside with corresponding holes that spanned the width of the RV. Lag bolts went up through the flat stock, the ceiling, an through the beam before being terminated at the top by nuts and washers.


It baffled every RV repair guy I found to look at it. I finally found a carpenter, and we went over the Handier Man repair in the coach section here. We used pressure treated 2x4s cut to run 14 inches flat in the center, before tapering down to about 1/2 inch. These were placed roughly 18 inches apart, and supports were installed in places between them and framing done for vents and the air conditioner. It was then insulated with foam.  1/2 inch CDX (pressure treated, exterior grade) plywood decking was put down there. Eternabond was used on all the seems at this point. I then covered this with a liquid EPDM membrane, but if you can afford it, aluminum sheeting like was on it is a better option. It's available from most semi-trailer repair places. It looks stock, and will probably last longer. But I just couldn't come up  with it at the time.

[LJ-TJ]

Found it.
http://picasaweb.google.com/109641835469071142409/1973WinnebagoIndianRoofReplacement?gsessionid=la8TCMKP0AY1uWBc4lux8A

[HandyDan]

I'm loving my Holiday Rambler more and more with its all aluminum structure.  No sags and no leaks.

[Rickf1985]

My Winnebago is all aluminum and it has a sag at the AC, Not bad enough to collect serious water but it is there. I think it is more from people walking on it than anything though but don't think those aluminum roofs and structures are indestructible. N:(

[CoastalWinnebago]

LT-TJ,


Amazing work, the rehab you did on that roof is top notch.  Thank you very much for sharing the process that you took to repair.  I will take another look tomorrow after things have dried out a bit and asses my plan moving forward. 


What do you guys think about removing the AC unit, use a piece of marine grade plywood cut to the width of the rig, to span the AC section.  Glue the entire piece of plywood to the roof. Cover with plastic RV roof material, then seal around the edge with eternabond tape?

Found it.
http://picasaweb.google.com/109641835469071142409/1973WinnebagoIndianRoofReplacement?gsessionid=la8TCMKP0AY1uWBc4lux8A

[LJ-TJ]

Well I'd say your on the right track. However the wood has to be able to carry the weight of the air conditioner that's why I was thinking 3/4 inch plywood. It would distribute the weight of the air conditioner over a greater area.Bevel the eight foot edges on about a 45 degree. Then get a piece of rubber roofing about eight by eight and lay it down and seal it. I believe that would be the least expensive way of doing it. Plus save you having to do the hole roof. Hm?

[DRMousseau]

I had the opportunity to "stroll" thru an old salvage yard,... ie. "Ancient Junkyard". There were DOZENS of various classic RV in assorted states of damage, disrepair, and,.... well you know!!!! A great chance to look closely at internal structures, unseen systems, assembly details and more. I personally,... WOULD NOT be putting 3/4" plywood on the roof of a structure that was NOT specifically designed for such!!!! That design being VERY specific to weight distribution, balance, strength, rigidity and overall purpose.

Too often we relate to what is common or familiar,... but RV's are unique!!! Jus as aircraft and watercraft. It's SHOCKING to see such assemblies as typical classic Winnebagos, that have no framing structures!!! Nothing around windows, AC units, ceiling fans, etc. What framing IS present is not really framing, but rather for structural attachment of assemblies,.... such as the sidewalls to ceiling and/or flooring, attaching water closet, cabinets, and seating to the walls. The walls and ceiling being a SOLID LAMINATE of outer skin, foam insulation, and inner surface, have NOTHING to securely attach interior walls to,... except for the light wood "framing" (also laminated into the panels) that provides a strong hold for screws. Not a support framing, no support is needed, but an attachment joint.

The framing of windows, fans, AC and such,... have "built-in" framing, as a part of its unique design, to CLAMP within the opening of wall or ceiling laminate. A flange on the outside, attaching to-and-thru the laminate, to a trim on the inside.  Ceiling strength lies in the solid lamination of the panel as a unit,... VERY strong, solid, rigid and quite supporting WITHOUT framing.This is much different than a "typical" home structure, in which a framed component is attached to a framed "hollow" wall opening, although studs are sometimes specially located for attaching internal wall structures.

Aluminum framed RV's are quite different, and very similar to the more closely related "typical" home structure. Framed components are attached thru, or clamped around an aluminum framed opening, in a hollow wall structure. Internal walls and structures are attached to the framing. Aluminum framed RV's have loose insulation, either cut and fitted foam board, or jus loose batting,.... much like a typical home. The wall and ceiling strength depends on the framing structure.

Plywood is a strong "laminate",... but looses that strength if it "delaminates"!!! The same thing happens in many Classic RV's like Winnebago's,... if the walls or ceiling "DELAMINATES", you'll lose all structural strength, rigidity and stiffness. It will not support any weight of AC units, or of you walking on it. Yes, what little framing there is in the ceiling, IS NOT for weight support,... but for attaching internal walls to the ceiling, and for joining panels together. It is the LAMINATE that supports the weight,... not the frame.

COVERING or replacing the roof/ceiling with 3/4" plywood doesn't "FIX" a delamination problem. It will add tremendous weight that will affect the center of gravity and other design factors. AND,... you'll likely need to frame the openings in the plywood AND THE PANEL JOINTS, for the necessary support, thereby adding even more weight. Jus as 1/4" plywood would flex to much, 3/4" will also flex much more than the 2" foam laminate that was designed specifically for this lightweight purpose.

[d21 special]

Don't think there is any shortcut that'll be worthwhile.  All you need to rebuild the roof is a little basic carpentry skill, this site and some kahoonas.

[khantroll]

As d21 said, it's not that bad. If I hadn't hired a carpenter to help, the whole project wouldn't have cost me but 800 to 900 bucks. With a metal covering, it would've run an additional 500.


If you'd like, it's possible to rebuild the sandwich design. The high density foam can be purchased from boat building supply stores. The wood may be harder to locate, as most of the stores I inquired to didn't have it. It's like 1/4 luan or similar. An epoxy is used to make the sandwich. Ideally, you'd lay it up and bag it, but one of the members here has done it by laying the roof panel out on a flat surface and then filling up an inflatable pool with water to apply uniform pressure.


The pro to the above would be that it is what was on there before. The downsides are that it doesn't allow you to put much pitch in the flat roof, and it's even more time consuming and costly.  It's an option though.


One other tip: the Handier-Man repair specifies to use FRP for the interior ceiling. When I requested FRP, I was given this thin fiberglass material that was flimsy. I am not happy with it personally, and I would recommend a solid board or paneling type

[engineer bill]

I'm also in Northern California, and during the most recent big rain storm, my Winne sprung a new leak that found it's way down into the inside a/c cover. I ran down to Harbor Freight and bought a basic 19' x 25' tarp. I drafted my wife to help me get it on-it was a bear with the wind blowing but we got it. Then I put a h.d. dehumidifier in the coach and crossed my fingers. RH is 45%. Seems to be ok for now.


update: Obviously not a long term solution. My rv storage area, along side the house, has a bit of a down hill slope as well as a slight slope side to side. Last year, I parked the Winne turned around in the other direction. I didn't notice any water inside but my storage bin under the front side of the RV filled up with 12 inches of water. That's where I had all my tools and DeWalt driver. Unfortunately I didn't realize it was all under water for about 6 weeks. It was kind of a mess. After that I drilled a drain hole (with a new DeWalt) and pop riveted a shroud underneith to keep road water out. The new tools are better protected now also. So far no leaks there.


second update: Well now I know the difference between the $29.99 tarp and the $59.99 tarps at Harbor Freight. On the $29.99 tarp, the underlying fabric reinforcement is not there. A light grey grid is just printed on the surface so it looks like it's reinforced. Oh well, another lesson learned. (The list is getting pretty long at my age.) At least it will be relatively easy to tie the new, better tarp to the edge of the one currently on the Winne and pull it up and over the top. (Putting the first one on was a bear and I needed my wife to help and deploying a tarp is not high on her list of things to enjoy.)


Oh and by the way, the de-humidifier seems to be doing a great job of drying the Winne from the inside out. I'll never leave it stored without this baby inside.

[CoastalWinnebago]

Update: There was a break in the weather MLK weekend and I spent the entire weekend on the roof.  I think over three days I spend close to 34 hours working on the Bago. 


I decided that the "sagging" in the roof near the AC vent was not bad enough to warrant a complete rebuild, and/or adding any plywood at this time. Its well less than 1/2" sag, and although there is some water pooling, I think with new seals this water will not come in.



I stripped all the old gaskets EPDM rubber/ silicone off using razor blades and acetone, then I used an orbital stander to sand down to raw Aluminum. It was obvious that this roof and been band-aid repaired many times.


I painted the raw Aluminum with DTM (Direct to metal) paint/coating.  I also stripped, sanded and painted the metal plate the AC unit sits on.  This coating has very high performance adhesion to Aluminum as well as very high hardness rating.  After painting I put down a square layer of eternabond roof tape to build up a lip around the AC area.  From there I applied double sided eternabond tape and attached the metal AC plate.  New stainless screws were used to attach the plate.  A new AC foam gasket was then applied.  I finalized the job by adding another layer of eternabond roof tape around the metal flange to cover the stainless screws.


Put the AC unit back on (lifted it on my own!) and tightened it down.  I also followed the similar procedure for the bathroom roof vent.  In that application I replaced the vent with a newer design. 


Since the work was completed there were multiple storms and NO WATER coming in the coach!!!! 

[LJ-TJ]

  Sweet! Now  where's the pictures. Naaaaaw well done. Sounds like you did a great job. On the flips side pictures of the materials you used would be a big help for others if you still have the cans? Good Job.

[M & J]

 

[cosmic]

I ripped out the roof panels from the inside and used galvanized steel that holds a stop sign. in the center of the contour I PL premium (glued) wood. the wood is so you can re fasten the new ceiling sheets. which I think I payed 40 dollars each. The contour stop sign post with wood glued in it, is  strong at hell and will never sag. I used extra angle brackets inside the cupboards to support both sides of the posts.. The posts go on top of the side walls and brackets just below are a foot long to spread the weight. I ran one on the front of the ac and one on the back those 2 posts hold my ace as I bounce down the road. now I had a straight roof so I tapped some small shims above the steel and raised the roof just a 8th of a inch and the water all runs away from the ac unit.
This took me 1 day. cant tell inside what was done and the sag problem is over...
For the original roofs you can notch the foam or use a roter  so you have room for the posts.. don't go to deep or through the aluminum you will go... just deep enough for the post and to get above the side walls...
hope my example is understandable. D:oH!