Weekday Full Time Boondocking Challenges--Preventing Freeze Over Weekend

[Mr Ray]

Hi everybody!

I am currently in chiropractic school in Marietta, GA.   I still have roots (family, house, etc) in Birmingham.  During this process I stay in my RV (1983 Minnie Winnie) M-F then drive my daily driver home to Bham each weekend.  I have no reliable access to plug in power. 

This is my first winter in this setup, and cold temps (cold for us, at least) have presented some challenges.  My winter routine during the week consists of running the gen for 2-3 hours each evening after classes while blasting a couple electric space heaters, then running furnace at night on lowest setting to keep things reasonably warm, as Temps have been frequently in the 20's over the last few weeks.  I'm plenty warm in this setup, but my battery bank (2 x group 27 deep cycle) in the coach is pretty well drained each morning, sometimes to the point of the low voltage alarm on my inverter waking me up before my clock alarm.  That furnace is a hog! 

I just purchased a Mr Buddy Heater, and that should make the battery struggle easier once I get it safely plumbed to my propane tank. 

However,  here is the big puzzle:

How do I keep everything from freezing while I am home over the weekend?  Last weekend Temps dipped to 18F and I had asked a buddy to babysit my bus over the weekend and do the furnace, gen, etc.  Well, you know how that goes...if you want something done right...

He forgot to turn the furnace on on the coldest night, leaving the bus equilibrating with the outside for about 36 hours.   When I returned, my kitchen faucet had an icycle hanging from it and the fixture had burst from the frozen water.  My water pump and fresh tanks were frozen solid.  The water that stays in the bowl of the toilet was frozen, making the toilet unusable for several hours.  Thankfully I had turned on my propane water heater and dumped antifreeze into the waste tanks before I left, and the only permanent damage seems to be the faucet.

I'd like suggestions for a set it and forget it solution that will last 36 hours on battery power while I am home on the weekends.  I bought a little ceramic fixture and mounted it with a 60W bug light inside the dinette bench in with the main fresh water tank and pump.  I'll leave the other fresh tank under the other bench empty.  Should I do the same bug light setup again for the faucet and water lines?  Are the grey and black tanks safe with antifreeze and no addl heat?  Could I get away with even lower wattage bulb?

Other energy efficient options?  Headed to Walmart now to buy a third battery.

I've velcroed reflectix over all the windows and sealed drafts best I could.

Thanks very much in advance for any help!

Ray

[sasktrini]

Hey, Ray.  You may have to resort to buying water at Walmart and not using your fresh water system when the weather threatens freezing.  Ice in the tanks and supply lines can cause serious damage.  I'm coping with the same thing, still trying to thaw my brick out.  Unfortunately, it doesn't get above freezing up here for a couple months from now.


I'm experimenting with waterbed heaters, though I haven't been able to get it under my tank yet… Only gotten a little bit to melt each time I'm out there working on it.


I just upgraded my Class 27 Marine / RV "Deep Cycle" batteries for a pair of GC2 (6V golf cart batteries).  Last night working on my rig, I ran a spotlight and said waterbed heater on my 3000W inverter for about 5 hours with no low voltage alarm (stayed steady at about 11.9V), plus a few light fixtures and furnace on the DC side.  One of the best decisions I made… I shall soon rely on my generator less and less with a good battery bank.


Your batteries may be on their way out, as they seem to drain as rapidly as my old ones did running the inverter.

[Mr Ray]

Thanks so much for the reply and for the water bed heater idea.  I will definitely look into those.  Sounds like you are on to something with buying better quality batteries.  It's crazy how little 3 big group 27 batteries will get you, though after adding the 3rd I can now get through the night running the furnace.

I purchased a big buddy heater, and will run that at night (with ventilation) so I expect the furnace to run even less.  Will connect that to the on board propane.

The light bulb setup seems to be working so far.  It helps that it is under the dinette bench which traps the heat around the tank.  I added a 2nd setup under the sink which will warm the faucet as well as a good portion of lines.  That's another closed space that will hold the heat in. 

And now...the latest mod.  IT hit me as I was wandering around walmart before heading home.  I bought a vacation timer, and set it so that it only turns power on to the 2 light bulbs 1 of every 3 hours except for the coldest hours of the night.  With this mod I was able to cut the power usage in half.  It SHOULD get the rv through the weekends with 1 generator bump on Sunday, which my neighbor should be able to manage.

One more battery and I won't need the generator over the weekend.

Will see what it looks like when I return.  And yes, emptying the water tanks is my backup plan.

Will report back on Monday!

[Rickf1985]

Be aware that the propane heater is going to give you a lot of condensation in the camper. This is not really good for the walls when it gets behind them and condenses on the back of the outer skin.

[Mr Ray]

Thanks Rick,
Hoping it's not too bad.  Will probably use the furnace by itself most of the time, with the buddy on coldest nights.  I have about 8 damp rid containers I keep going around the clock.
Ray

[sasktrini]

Great idea on the timers!  I love it!


Adding on to Rick's comment, propane raises humidity, where electric will lower humidity.  So even your furnace could contribute to condensation, though less than a portable big buddy.


We had gotten a little above freezing on Friday, and stayed relatively warm til today (just below freezing).  And I had evacuated some of the water from my tank Friday.  Gonna take another stab at it today.


Yeah… I think if I could find someone selling a used waterbed on the local classifieds, I'd grab it cheap just to get a third working heater.  The two I have, I intended for my black and grey tanks under the coach, thinking my fresh water system would be fine as its completely in the coach… apparently not.


Oh… you asked if your waste tanks would be fine with antifreeze… Hopefully, yes.  But you don't want them to fill up, freeze, swell the joints and seams in the tanks and pipes and valves… so try to limit their use and make sure they are thawed as best as you can determine before you dump.  Hopefully, you will be rid of your freezing weather soon.

[Mr Ray]

Corey, do you have the water bed heaters attached directly to the black and grey tanks?  How so?  What kind of current do these draw?

I am going to check out heat tape.  Seems to be very low current draw for this stuff.

My friend checked on the bus today.  The bank was already down to 11.6V, so you may be right about the batteries failing.  I do have the fridge pulling some DC as well, but that is just the control board, rest is propane.  Hoping maybe I left the furnace on or something.

[sasktrini]

I don't have them installed. I have to build compartments around the tanks, line them with rigid foam, and slip them under the tanks.  But with one running just resting on top of the fresh tank, I did get about a gallon of water out of the tank tonight. I'm not sure about the amp draw, but it's probably similar to a coffee maker.  My generator laboured when I turned the circuit on.  I'll see if there are any markings in the next few days.

[DRMousseau]

I'm mostly on shore power, with 2 deep cycle T105's. My inverter is not yet installed in the Cruise Air II. But last year, with the same system in the ol' Winnebago, I experienced much the same,... furnace fan drew a lot of power when running near constantly. I kept a dry system in the ol' Winnebago,... there was jus no other way.

The Cruise Air II is much better, but I too had some freezing problems a few weeks ago in near zero weather. Nearly everything lies within the coach interior and I keep reasonable heat inside all the time. But at the extreme corners of the coach rear, I began to freeze water lines in isolated areas, that required I open some cabinets and drawers to allow heat to freely circulate in those areas.

My waste storage is protected in the underbelly utility bunk from direct exposure, but they will freeze in such extreme weather conditions. I have a old hand-held hair dryer with multi-level settings that I place in there on low, to circulate warm air a bit in those worst of conditions. My biggest problem, is the exposed dump that exits the bottom of the utility bunk. I usually jus drop grey water thru this by a short section of old water hose on the cap. But the drop will easily freeze into a 3" plug of ice with such restricted flow! When this happens, I prop a cardboard box around it, temporally enclosing it with cutouts where needed, and drop my hair dryer in it. It then thaws clear in about an hour, while my short dump hose thaws out in the shower. In cold weather conditions, I have to collect grey water in the tank where freezing is more easily managed, and jus dump occasionally.

I might suggest something similar that I had considered for the ol' Winnebago. A foil lined cardboard box propped snuggly around the exposed waste tank and drain area with a light bulb or a hairdryer in it on low setting. It might not be practical on limited battery/inverter power all the time, but it will thaw the "block" of ice when things get outa hand.

I'm so glad my home has wheels!!! My best solution to these problems,... has been to drive to N Florida when such weather gets extreme. And return to N Michigan when the heat of summer becomes difficult to manage in Florida!!!

[Rickf1985]

You guys with your waterbed heaters, you do realize they make heaters that are made to be bonded to the bottom of the water tanks don't you? and they run on 12 volts. And they probably draw less than the waterbed heater. Plus, putting the heater on top, when heat rises, is not helping much.

[sasktrini]

Rick,


1) Waterbed heaters were free
2) If I could get it under my fresh water tank, I would.  It's full of ice at the moment.

[Mr Ray]

This is great hearing different people's creative unique solutions to the same problem.  I realize I have it alot easier easier here in Georgia during winter.  Come Summer, though, I'll be wishing I could follow DRMousseau back to Michigan!  BTW, how do you like the t105s?   Significant improvement over cheaper 27/29 group?  I have 2 Auto craft 27 DC AND 1 walmart 29DC Maxx.  Still feel underpowered.

Rick, I am definitely going to check out some heat tape.  For around here (temps don't get below teens) the antifreeze in the dump tanks seems to be enough, but I wouldn't mind a little insurance.

Corey, I think DRMousseau's suggestion of a cardboard enclosure which traps heat from whatever source  you have might do well to get you thawed until you can build the permanent enclosure (another good idea).  If you are no longer trying to save it for use and just trying to get it out, why not dump rv antifreeze or deicer I there?

[ClydesdaleKevin]

You guys with your waterbed heaters, you do realize they make heaters that are made to be bonded to the bottom of the water tanks don't you? and they run on 12 volts. And they probably draw less than the waterbed heater. Plus, putting the heater on top, when heat rises, is not helping much.

Rick is totally right.  The stick on pads that go on the tanks will run on 12 volts and draw a lot less amps.  AND...they are cheaper than buying water bed heaters (if you can't find free ones).  Heat tape around your water pipes will draw way too many amps using them with your inverter.  Not sure if they make 12 volt heat tape.  But if the majority of your water pipes are in the same compartment as your tanks and water pump (like on our RV), then the heat pads on the tanks will heat the whole compartment enough so that your pipes won't freeze. 


Kev

[Mr Ray]

Thx Kevin,
Most of my lines are inside, though my walls are not very well insulated.  Most run in the same compartment as the hot water heater, so hopefully keeping the hot water heater going will be enough there.

So far, antifreeze into the grey and black tanks has kept those protected, but I'm going to pick up a couple heat pads for those rare times when it gets below the teens here. 

I wonder what effect poo and pee has on water's freezing point  .  I'm assuming it lowers it based on the sodium content.

[sasktrini]

Corey, I think DRMousseau's suggestion of a cardboard enclosure which traps heat from whatever source  you have might do well to get you thawed until you can build the permanent enclosure (another good idea).  If you are no longer trying to save it for use and just trying to get it out, why not dump rv antifreeze or deicer I there?

Oddly, last night in the frozen tundra of the Great White North, we had freezing rain and temperatures above freezing yesterday, due to stick around til tomorrow.  I've gotten a few gallons out prior to this, and will go out there tomorrow and see what luck I have.


This is my fresh water tank, housed in the interior within my kitchen cabinet and sofa bed… I don't know if I could use that method to thaw it out.  However, once I get it emptied, I may enclose it in foil-backed insulation.  For now, warm outside temperatures, running the furnace and aiming electric space heaters at the tank while I'm working on other stuff is the best I can do.


I would rather avoid adding antifreeze to that tank, as it will hold potable water… really don't want to have to flush it out in spring.


Re: the 12VDC vs 110VAC water tank heating solutions… for the amount of usage these would get, I'm not sure that I am ready to spend on 12VDC… I just should have been smart and emptied the fresh water tank.  But even for next winter, my enclosure for the waste tanks… I think it will be good to install the heaters in there (or maybe just one for the two tanks) since they are suspended under the chassis.  Really didn't think I'd need one for the interior (wrong this winter).  I figure I'd only need it one day out of 365. 

[Rickf1985]

Think about the insulation on the fresh water tank. If the tank is in the interior and it sits on the floor if you insulate it then you will be insulating the heat from inside away from the tank and allowing the cold from the floor to get to it. That would also insulate that same cold inside the tank. I would bet there is no insulation under it on the floor to keep the cold from outside from getting to the bottom of the tank.

[DRMousseau]

IMO,... if temps are gonna be consistently below 20degrees, ya better have GOOD systems and backup plans. Tank heaters are available in AC/DC and would be MY personal choice given the uniqueness of my current setup and circumstances. It would NOT be satisfactory for the ol' Winnebago, which had very exposed drain/tank systems. I had considered enclosing and insulating that entire area with all drain components and installing a tank heater WITH a backup area heating system. Twenty isn't far from 10degrees,... and I'd rather have a backup in case it was necessary for the emergency of complete draining to preserve everything. The Cruise Air II is set up much better and gives me a greater temp allowance,... but anything near sub-zero would be very threatening and I'd dry it out too.

BTW,.... Trojan T-105 batteries are the best 6V I've seen. And I mean that literally! I've handled THOUSANDS of typical lead/acid batteries (6V, 8V and 12V),... with many opportunities see how and what causes various battery failures, as well as the inside construction and components of a great many selections (including the then "new" glass-mats and gels) of assorted age and use, as well as extensive testing of such batteries and related systems. I had an active roll in introducing and personally maintained the first proto-type "fleet" of 48V regenerative golf-car systems,... now the new industry standard. Considering size, volume, weight, capacity and more,.... I'm certain you'll be MUCH more satisfied with a pair (or multiple pairs!) of T-105's over any 12V group deep-cycle or marine setup in a typical RV deep-cycle application.

oh,.... and running that hot-water heater AND the furnace, can be real expensive in propane costs,... especially when temps get so low that both run nearly constantly to recover heat loss. Another consideration of jus running dry in extreme conditions. Bulk supply is far economical than 20lb refills, which are better than 20lb exchanges!!! Although the Cruise Air II is nearly TWICE the size of the ol' Winnebago Brave, my propane costs are surprisingly much lower, and I am FAR more comfortable. My monthly propane costs were about $100-$150 during Nov-Dec and early Jan in N. Michigan. Here in North Florida,... about half the cost thru the coldest of Jan. I might need one more fill between now and June, when I'll return to Michigan for the wonderful summer. Right now,... jus the heat during the night (maybe) and thru the coldest days, most days the heats off in the early morning, and windows are open all day!!!! And hot water only when needed,... I would surely do better with an "on demand" hot water system.

[Mr Ray]

Good point about the insulation placement, Rick.

BTW,.... Trojan T-105 batteries are the best 6V I've seen. And I mean that literally! I've handled THOUSANDS of typical lead/acid batteries (6V, 8V and 12V),... with many opportunities see how and what causes various battery failures, as well as the inside construction and components of a great many selections (including the then "new" glass-mats and gels) of assorted age and use, as well as extensive testing of such batteries and related systems. I had an active roll in introducing and personally maintained the first proto-type "fleet" of 48V regenerative golf-car systems,... now the new industry standard. Considering size, volume, weight, capacity and more,.... I'm certain you'll be MUCH more satisfied with a pair (or multiple pairs!) of T-105's over any 12V group deep-cycle or marine setup in a typical RV deep-cycle application.

OK.   That decides that.  T-105s added to the buy next list.  What are your thoughts on "refurbished" deep cycles?  There's a place near me selling refurbished Trojan batteries for cheap.  Don't know what their t105 price is yet.  New I found some for $110 + core.  A pair of these added to my bank would definitely get my current setup through a weekend of 20's temps.  Plus, can't have too much energy on reserve.  Solar setup is going on this Spring.

oh,.... and running that hot-water heater AND the furnace, can be real expensive in propane costs,... especially when temps get so low that both run nearly constantly to recover heat loss. Another consideration of jus running dry in extreme conditions. Bulk supply is far economical than 20lb refills, which are better than 20lb exchanges!!! Although the Cruise Air II is nearly TWICE the size of the ol' Winnebago Brave, my propane costs are surprisingly much lower, and I am FAR more comfortable. My monthly propane costs were about $100-$150 during Nov-Dec and early Jan in N. Michigan. Here in North Florida,... about half the cost thru the coldest of Jan. I might need one more fill between now and June, when I'll return to Michigan for the wonderful summer. Right now,... jus the heat during the night (maybe) and thru the coldest days, most days the heats off in the early morning, and windows are open all day!!!! And hot water only when needed,... I would surely do better with an "on demand" hot water system.

Yeah that furnace eats propane and electricity.  I haven't noticed my hot water heater kicking on very often.  Furnace, definitely, but the water heater not much.  Its brand new (maybe better insulation?), and I have the thermostat on it turned all the way down.  Would like an on-demand system too.  One great thing about the Minnie, it has a 100# propane tank.  Doesn't help the cost, but it sure is convenient.  I'm looking at about $50 / month for Jan.  I can live with that, but like you said, insurance is nice, so I'll likely pick up some tank heaters like Rick described.

And Corey, I'm with you on the antifreeze.  I only put it in the dump tanks.  I did consider adding alcohol in the water though :-).  Thought maybe I could heat the alcohol out of it when I wanted to use it.

[DRMousseau]

mmmm,.... refurbished???
Ya gotta wonder, jus exactly, WHAT refurbished is.

Like all deep-cycle batteries, the plates and grids are heavily built and uniquely constructed to resist the abuse of heavy usage. There's a much larger empty space below cells to allow for excessive shedding.

"Reconditioned" batteries have been subjected to a heavy charge to clean plates, grids and balance cells. Sometimes subjected to a rinse and flush to remove sediments and sheddings, then refilled and heavily cycled and tested,... they can be a good buy, and sometimes not. Best to ask for a test data sheet for the specific battery being purchased, and select another that best matches those results for a good 2-battery bank. In my experience, T-105's are at their peak performance and maximum capacity after 12-18months of typical use and cycling,... such batteries have an embossed date code that can be helpful is assessments. You can expect such batteries to yield a solid 25A constant draw for about 7.5hrs (at 80F)(or 20A for about 10hrs) before voltage drops below a unusable level (about 5.5V), more or less depending on temperature. You can double that for a parallel 12V bank of four T-105's,... nearly 3KW!!!

I hate alcohol based antifreeze in RV systems,... especially fresh water systems. Ya need about 10% for protection to about 20F,.... 30% if temps of near zero are expected,... and that's a lot, with an odor that jus seems to hang around for weeks. Then there's that flash point,... always on my mind and really jus shouldn't be.

I personally considered salt as an antifreeze solution,... percentage wise, ya need a tad bit more. Add it as a super-saturated solution to either of your tanks, fresh supplies or waste holding... you'll need about a pound per gal of protection to 20degrees,... 2lbs per gal to zero, and that's not always practical given the characteristics of salt. Ya, it's corrosive to steel and brass,... but I feel it's better tolerated with no odors, till the tank is rinsed clear. With a salt solution, alcohol can always be added if necessary to enhance freeze protection to lower temps if and when exceptional conditions arrive.

Suppose I'd salt as a last resort,.... jus to hold everything while I unloaded and dried out. A heavy brine and alcohol in the drains and waste tanks, and small bit in the fresh tank to flush lines and preserve everything till warmer conditions returned. The hot water tank is a pretty big concern,... salt can be pretty bad here. But this tank can usually be isolated and drained empty by itself, and I've even seen lines cut right by the tank for this reason, jus to be repaired later. Those are the "seasonal" users,.... but those of us who call it home, really like our hot showers on a cold day!!!

BTW,... North Florida is DANG NICE right now!!!

[LJ-TJ]

Nice try.BTW,... North Florida is DANG NICE right now!!! We're sitting here in Ontario with 40 degree weather :)rotflmao Don't know how long for but 40 degrees on January 31 Oh and now snow. D:oH! I'm looking at 3,600 foot of grass.

[EldoradoBill]

Refurbished batteries? What do they do add Epsom Salts to the cells? There's no magic potion when it comes to batteries they only have so many cycles in them, go with new regardless of the upfront cost it's the most economical over their lifetime.


Bill

[Rickf1985]

110.00 for used and unknown or 150.00 for brand new. No brainer to me. 80.00 more for peace of mind that those batteries are going to last me 6-7 years.

[Rickf1985]

There is always talk about 6 vs. 12 volt and which is better. If you go with 2 X 6 volt you get 12 volt but the same amp hour as the one 6 volt is rated. I do not see any advantage here since a T-105 takes up the same space as a group 27 12 volt battery. If you go with 2 X 12 volt you get double the amp hour rating of the one 12 volt, hence longer run times on your equipment on the same footprint of battery storage. I am thinking of weight and available space for batteries. In order to make the T-105 equal to the 2 X 1 volt configuration as far as power goes you would need 4 T-105's set up in series/parallel.

http://usbattery.com/info-center/configuration/

Now, granted, the T-105 is going to last longer than the 12 volt unless you buy quality deep cycle 12 volt batteries.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

BTW,... North Florida is DANG NICE right now!!!

Ya got that right Dr.  I am sitting in Kings Bay GA just north of Florida at the moment so I can relate.

While you can get true deep cycle Group 27 batteries, most Group 27 batteries for RV's are Marine style batteries.  These are a compromise between true deep-cycle and starting batteries.

[DRMousseau]

I HAVE bought used 2yr old deep-cycle batteries and had been VERY satisfied with them. I also paid a fair price relative to the known capacity,... I could have paid less, and would have gotten less. BUT,.... I was also fortunate enough to select from a HUGE known assortment, and had all testing results that jus isn't available to folks. I used them for many years in a sailboat. Would I buy used, reconditioned or "refurbished" batteries today? Not likely, a least not without the adequate info that's important to me to make a good choice of quality and value.

My Cruise Air II did indeed have TWO 12V deep-cycle Marine/RV batteries when I bought it. These kind of batteries are typical in RVs. They are constructed quite a bit lighter, are not quite as durable, and DO have less capacity and lifetime when compared to 6V deep-cycle 12V-battery bank. And it IS necessary to have a pair of 12v to have adequate capacity or comparable capacity. I much prefer the quality and construction of Trojan brand batteries over the many other brands. And a high-quality comparable size Trojan 12V 2-battery bank will still have less capacity than the T-105 bank,... although not by much!!!! The biggest difference will lie in the longer life and durability of the T-105's unique construction,... they will last me a couple years longer, especially with my inadvertent, occasional abuse and neglect. And I have to consider unusual long term hot and cold conditions that can sometimes be extreme.

For most folks,... it probably makes little difference, 12V, 6V, Trojan, Exide or WalMart specials. And everyone's preference is made on their personal experience, which when compared my personal experience,... is often VERY limited. I've messed with A LOT of assorted batteries, for all kinds of purposes... and still do!!! Currently exploring the various new Lithium chemistries and options for a specialized, compact, medium-to-high-capacity application (a custom built auxiliary vehicle for my unusual RV lifestyle). Yep,.... they can blow up too! With FLAMES!!!! Ugh. I hate battery explosions!!!!