'72 Dodge Tioga Motorhome, 16.5 to 16" wheel swap, will these work?

[87Itasca]

Hi all,

Working on my friends '72 Tioga again. Got it running well thanks to a carb rebuild, and now we will be moving on shortly to the next issue - tires.

It has 16.5" wheels all around, and the tires are all shot. We are wanting to swap them to 16" wheels in a size that is close to what the existing tires are to make "emergency" replacement more feasible should they have a tire failure in BFE.

The ones I have narrowed down for the rear are these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252075892393?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The fronts use a wheel that is more of a standard 16" wheel, and these I don't think would work. The wheels that are on this motorhome (I have not pulled the studs to check yet) are most likely coined.

Would there be any issues going from coined to these wheels, as long as I used lug nuts with a tapered end?

Thanks all.

The front wheels are a different beast. Looks like regular 16" van wheels should work there. Maybe.
Front wheels look like the photo below, picture is representative, thankfully.

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/25273/22918284_2.jpg?v=8D296CBB41788F0


Also, with this being a '72, should it be running with a lead additive in the gas? The gas gauge does not say "Unleaded Only", it's just a gas gauge.

[Rickf1985]

Those Ford rims are hub-centric rims and have to center on the hub so if the hubs are the right size on the Dodge then you can do it but you cannot use coned nuts on flat rims. There would not be enough contact area from nut to rim plus the inner rim would have nothing to center on and would slide around.

[87Itasca]

Rick, flat lug nuts would not work on these flat rims though would they? Not sure if there would be an issue with lugs working loose, or the rims moving around on the studs.

These resemble what are on there now.

http://europartshouse.com/images/Lugnuts-5pk-240.jpg


The problem with getting flat 5/8-18 lug nuts is fi ding them in left and right thread. Not having much luck it would seem for the LH thread.

[87Itasca]

The good news is the flat wheels I have for the rims here at the shop will bolt on just fine, I have new flanged flat lug nuts coming for the rears.

The front wheels I have ordered off eBay, used, off an '88 Dodge Ram 250. 16", and they look identical to what I have. Hope they will clear the drums.

As far as tires go, the closest thing to a 8R16.5 is a 225-75-16, which I don't mind getting, but they are wanting to put portawalls on them, and I figured it might work better with a taller 215-85-16 tire, but I'm not sure if that would cause any issues. It's marginally (.4 in) taller, but about 1/4" narrower, which, again, I don't know if it would even be an issue.

[Rickf1985]

Do the rear rims fit snug against the inner hub? If they do not you cannot use them! They will slide around and not center.

[87Itasca]

They do!
The center hole is the same size as the original wheel, and it's a perfect fit!

Hopefully the front wheels I have coming will be the same story.


Would you have any idea Rick, on the requirement for leaded fuel in this '72? I see no 'unleaded' stickers anywhere, which is why I was concerned.

[Rickf1985]

The gas question is not even close to related to the wheels so I am answering you by way of PM.

[87Itasca]

Unfortunately, it would appear the front wheels I ordered online will not clear the front drum. The hub is about 1/4" from touching the hub, and the rim will not go on any more.

Looks like the 16.5" has just a touch more space between where the outer rim connects to the inner spoked part of the wheel, clearing that gap. I honestly thought I had enough.

The rear wheels will not work on the front due to the smaller studs, plus being too wide a wheel.

So what now? This swap has been done before, clearly there is some sort of alternative here. Only thing I can figure is newer wheels up to '93 will not work if it has drum brakes, despite having the same offset, because the diameter with drums is slightly larger.

[Rickf1985]

modern 16 inch wheels came out after the demise of drum brakes for the most part.

[87Itasca]

I just want to post a final update for anyone in the future who may be perusing various threads online trying to figure out how to make this work, and never seeming to come across a definitive answer.

In the case of this vehicle, the front wheels are drum brakes. If your vehicle has discs, it seems this will still apply, and be even easier for you.

This vehicle has LH and RH threaded lug nuts, which were originally tapered for the coined wheels. These would not provide adequate clamping surface area on the new flat wheels, so I opted for some flat nuts NAPA part # 641-2061, and 641-2062 to really hold the wheels snug.


The dual rear wheels were purchased from Nuera Trailer, they are Dodge center hub (4.77") 16" wheels. They fit perfectly over the 5/8" studs on the rear and snugly against the rear drum. Being that the original wheels were coined and these were not, I used two of the original wheel lug nuts to "center" the wheels before tightening down the rest of the lug nuts, to prevent it "bouncing" while driving down the road. Once the other six were tight, I removed the coned nuts, and replaced them with the flats, re-checking the torque on all the nuts afterwards.

On the front wheels, I was told only wheels from Dodge trucks up to 1993 will work. With disk brakes, it would appear this is true. With my drums and 1/2-20 studs up front, dually offset wheels would not work. I got wheels from a D250 4x4 truck, 78-93 should be the same. While these fit the bolt pattern fine, they would hit the drum before they seated on the face.

In order to make this work with the drums, I had to grind down part of the rivet heads where the inner/outer sections of the wheels meet. I did not grind them down flush, only about half the thickness, so they would clear. I also had to grind the area on either side of the rivets where the metal was folded back was hitting the face of the drum by 1/4". The rims were then welded where the inner/outer sections met to ensure they were structurally sound.

Alternatively, one can run a spacer of about 1/4"-3/8" if they can find one. A 1/2" spacer will not leave enough thread on the lug nuts for me to have been comfortable going that route.

With disc brakes, the above work should not be necessary.

[Rickf1985]

You do realize what you are doing is unsafe don't you? You have no mechanical centering of the rear wheels and they ARE going to move. I don't care how tight you get those flat lug nuts if there is not a mechanical interference fit to keep the wheel centered it will move and once it does it will shear the lugs in short order. All wheels in all vehicles are centered on either the lugs or the hub, none are free floating and held only by friction. It kind of sounds like the front wheels are centered on the hubs but I am not sure, your references to "coined" and flat lug nuts are interspersed with hub measurements. Remember, it is not just you out there on the road, when this thing sheds the wheels completely you will not have control. It is not like a flat tire, you ARE going to crash and probably take someone else out with you. Sorry if I sound like the voice of doom but in this case I am.

[87Itasca]

The rear wheels, while flat, are centered on the hub itself. I used the conical nuts to center the lug holes around the studs, just because I felt that was the best way. Perhaps I'm writing this wrong.

There is a pin on the rear drums that go through both the wheels, then the wheels themselves center on the hub sticking out of the rear drum. I used the flat nuts opposed to the conical nuts (perhaps unnecessarily) because they had much more surface area to grip to the wheel.

I'm certainly not trying to kill anyone here. 

The front wheels are centered with the conical lug nuts, like the original. The front wheels were not originally coined, they looked like a regular passenger vehicle steel wheel.

[Rickf1985]

If the wheels are centered and snug on the hub then the lugs have to be centered. If the wheel will still center on the stud then you are still working with the wrong wheels. It sounds like you have wheels designed for 5/8 studs and you have 1/2 inch studs. Without coned rims the wheels will slide around to one side of the stud during braking and then to the other side of the stud during acceleration. If you have access to a machine shop you may be able to have sleeves machined to slide over the studs to take up the slack between the stud and the rim, just be sure it stays a few thousandths below the surface of the rim so that the flat lug nut does not bear against it instead of the rim. You will have to discuss with the machinist what the best material would be since stainless steel while the obvious choice for rust resistance is not hard enough I don't believe. Another option is to remove the studs that are in there, drill the right size holes and insert the proper studs. No matter what you do not want those wheels to move in any direction. There has to be a solid mechanical lock in both axis.

[TerryH]

I have been following this topic, even though it does not relate to my situation directly. However, it does relate to me and everyone else on the road.
87Itasca, PLEASE read and consider all information and recommendations  Rick has offered.
You are dealing with the big three for safety - tires, brakes and wheels. Not only your safety.
Your thinking here on using rims that are not coned and different hub sized, and using a couple of coned lug nuts to 'center' the rim are scary.
I would suggest you go to your local tire shop and stand outside while watching them 'balance' a tire. Note how fast the tire/rim is spinning. Consider that the tire/rim is NOT supporting 6000 pounds, is not spinning for 10 hours, and is not experiencing the road/useage/ambient temperatures that your tires/rims are.
Now, consider what may happen, should that rim mounting be very minimally off center. Heat build up. Stud against rim hole. Rim to lug nut movement. Lives of people around you when one of the above fails.
You will receive a lot of excellent advice on this site and some that is not so good. Please take all into consideration and give due consideration to the experience of the person offering.
Everyone who posts here has one main objective - to help others on this site.
Again, I offer this because I am very concerned about your intentions to mount wheels that seem to be non conforming to your unit.
Best of luck.

[chicknnhead]

this should almost be a sticky in the dodge section, I have successfully done what you did 5 years ago, never looked back
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,4960.msg20452.html#msg20452

[chicknnhead]

1stgen.org is the message board for 72-93 dodge trucks. also if your on social media there is a face book group called "1972 to 1993 dodge trucks" there are always guys parting out old trucks. I found a guy when I did mine that was parting out a 90 dodge dually and bought all 6 rims from him, I eventually bought a spare later down the road
hope this helps

[87Itasca]

It really should. I'll be on the lookout for a set of rear dodge dually rims to swap them, just for peace of mind, if nothing else. Don't want to hurt anyone, certainly.

[chicknnhead]

I have HEARD you can use the pre 1997 ford dually rims but then you must change all the lugs because dodge lugs are not flat. 32 lug nuts can add up to some $$$ if your not careful. I have 4 ford pre 97 ford dually rims but have never tried them. My ultimate goal is to buy the ion 166 dually wheels. I personally thing they look the best, but then that will require the pre-97 ford rims for the inner two rear rims as the ion 166 only come flat  and can't mate to the dodge coined wheels