Starter/Starting System/Charging

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: OldEdBrady  (Original Message)
Sent: 1/11/2005 9:55 PM

The Whiny Beggar.  '77 Brave, 440 engine.  '76 chassis.

We don't always use the RV, and, when we don't, I go out every few days and start her up.  A few days ago, I turned the starter and got a single click.  My first thought was the batteries, so I cleaned the posts and cables.  No luck. 

My next thought was the starter.  However, tonight, I went out for something, and, just for the heck of it, gave it a shot.  She started right up.

The original charge gauge (with the temp, etc.) hasn't worked since I bought her.  But a second guage (below the speedometer/odometer) has always shown a charge.  Tonight it did not.  Flat line all the way.

I do not know whether the battery was actually receiving a charge.  I'll know that tomorrow.

Any suggestions?



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 1/12/2005 12:20 PM

The best way to tell if the batts are recieving a charge is with a muti meter . The OEM gauge on my 76 does,t work either . After having trouble with mine I found the starter was bad and replaced it with a bosh rebuild . It was about 30. bucks w exchange if I remember . I have also since added a volt meter for the Coach and oil pressure gauge and water temp gauge to the dash . My 76 has a volt meter in the lower dash that was selectable for Coach or chassis Batt with a momentary switch to select so you had to hold the switch down for a reading . It has been rewired since to read just chassis batt wired through the ignition . Sea Hag 



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/14/2005 9:28 PM

It's driving me nuts!  I keep having the Begger fire right up.  Then it dawned on me:  DUH!! You have her plugged in to shore current!  Maybe the converter is keeping her charged!

So, tonight, I unplugged her, started her, and ran the engine for about half an hour, lights on, radio running, heater blower on.  Tomorrow I'll know for certain whether it is just the ammeter, or maybe the alternator, or, maybe,...

Who knows?



From: cooneytunes
Sent: 1/14/2005 11:58 PM

PRO-A,
You might have to let it run or drive it for a little longer than that if you have a full charge on battery.....I drove mine 350 miles, had a new battery, drove about 7 hours...with radio, fans, wipers, stopping & starting several times
and the lights on once in a while before I found out my alternator was not working and the battery finally droped to 10 amps and Shut down the fuel.  Then, next day, recharged the battery, drove almost 500 miles without an alternator belt, only the fuel pump running in day light, only using the turn signals, the battery never went down. Drove 11 hours....started right up the next day.....
Timmy



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/15/2005 12:11 AM

Thanks.  If she starts in the a.m., I'll do just that.  It's a 3-day weekend, so I have time to run the battery down--if that's what's happening.



From: denison
Sent: 1/17/2005 9:06 AM

A good way to tell if the alternator is charging the battery, is to have it running when its dark, turn on the headlights, and shut off the motor. The headlights, clearance lights and dashlights should get less bright when as engine stops. You could do this in the daylight if you had some bright light you could be watching when you turned off the motor, that used the engine battery for its source. Like a map light that plugs into the cigarette lighter socket. Also a voltmeter connected to the engine battery or charging system of course. I think it would show at least a one volt drop, from engine running to engine stopped. 



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/17/2005 6:30 PM

The last two days, I've been working on that thing.  The batteries are both good.  The starter probably could be replaced, but it works, so I don't want to do that now.  The voltage regulator is brand new.  I tried the thing (when it decided to start once) about checking the voltage at the batteries, and the alternator is good.

But it STILL starts sometimes and doesn't others.

I'm almost ready to stick a sign on it and sell it for any offer over $20 (please note the word "almost").



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 1/17/2005 9:47 PM

Ed, when you drop the "almost", I'll take it! 

Seriously, I would check your connections at the starter and the starter relay; also, the starter relay is cheap enough, I would go ahead and replace it as a starting point.

John



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/17/2005 9:56 PM

The Relay!  I'm banging my head on the desktop!

Thanks.

As for the wiring at the starter, it's nice and tight.  I checked that out, and that's when I decided the the starter is about ready for replacement, even though it still works.

So, tomorrow, if She Who Must Be Obeyed has no other plans, the relay is next.

Thanks.



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/20/2005 4:55 PM

Well, it wasn't the relay.  New one installed.  Now I have TWO things which click, which tells me the relay was bad.  And, from the looks of the one I took out, if it wasn't the original, it must have been the second one installed.

So, the only thing I can think of now is the starter.  And all-weekend job (if weather permits).  I hate the thought, but that's where I am.

Fun and games!



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 1/20/2005 11:31 PM

Yeah Ed, thats what it sounds like -- I mean, that is about all that is left.  Oh, when you replaced the starter relay, was the main fusible link sort of rubbery?  That would be the orange 14 gage wire that connects to the main post on the relay -- even though you can see it because of the loom, the other end connects to the output terminal on the alternator, and there are a couple of splices somewhere in the middle.  This is the wire that feeds voltage into the fuse panel and ignition switch.

When mine acted up like that, just before the starter went out, that was the problem.  After I replaced the fusible link (actually, I replaced the whole wire with a 4 gage battery cable that I made), it started fine until the starter finally went out completely a month later.

John



From: denison
Sent: 1/21/2005 8:05 AM

When it chooses not to start, have you tried jiggling the shifter lever?  Have you tried undoing and reconnecting the connectors in the wiring harness going to the steering column?
    The neutral/safety switch that is on the drivers side rear of the tranny could have a bad connector, (it lives in a dirty environment) or bad switch connections.   It is what provides the 12 volts to the starter relay (not to the starter solenoid) only when you are in park or neutral. Thats the -safety- feature.   If the shifter/cable were out of adjustment, this could make that switch barely work.
    When you turn the key to the start position, you are grounding a pink wire inside the ignition switch.  Then, if the little coil inside the starter relay is getting 12 volts to it from the neutral safety switch, that starter relay feeds 12 volts to the smaller of the 2 wires going to the starter.
   The neutral safety switch is also the backup light switch, and gets its 12 volts from a fused circuit - which could also be corroded.   On my 72 the same fuse is for the horns and the backup lights.  So if my horn wont blow, the backup lights wont work, and the starter wont work!
  But since you do hear a click, the next thing to check might be whether the two wires running from the starter relay to the starter are okay.  The thicker wire is fed 12 volts all the time, being connected to the cable running from the battery.  If you make an electrical -short- between those 2 wires, the starter should turn.    If it doesnt, the starter could be bad, or you could have a bad ground connection.
   If you are going to short those wires together with the ignition on, ensure the motorhome wont run over you once the engine starts up...............
  I added a nice thick ground cable, running from one of the bolts holding the starter on, over to the bolt that holds the bracket which supports the starter relay.  I sanded the rust away from the area first.   The original engine-to-chassis-ground wire might be badly corroded. 
   I believe there should be a heat shield between your starter and the exhaust manifold.  If its not there, your starter may have died from being cooked.  The heat shield is a nuisance to install, but needed.   
   In order to get my starter out, its easier if I unbolt the bracket that supports the starter relay, so the motor can slide back in the channel of the frame rail. 



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/22/2005 8:54 PM

Just an update.  And, information for anyone who may need it in the future.

SHE STARTS!!  After the relay, voltage regulator and starter, it works (kinda)!

The starter HAD to be original.  Even after the bolts were removed, the starter had to be hammered out.  It just wouldn't release.

Now, for the tips.  All of these have been posted at one place or another, but here they are together, regarding starters.

1. Remove the exhaust on the driver's side.  It's in the way.  You'll just get frustrated and turn the air blue if you don't do that first.  You don't have to drop the entire thing--just where it connects under the motor.

2.Remove the wheel on the driver's side, or, as an alternative, find someone very thin  who can fit between the outside RV wall and the beam, around that wheel.  That top bolt on the starter motor is a bear!  (I did the second one.)
 
3.  When you (finally) are able to remove the starter, there is a small metal plate between it and the motor.  Be very careful that you get it out with the starter motor.

4. A little RTV sealant sure helps hold the plate in place when you're putting the new starter in.  It doesn't take much; just enough to hold it.