1972 Chieftain Winnebago A.K.A 'Where Dogs Lie'

[moezart]

Here is my build. It's a 1972 Winnebago Chieftain, Class A D-22, M400

I picked it up at a reasonable price. The motor and transmission were shot. I had a mechanic rebuild the 727 transmission, and then the motor. I wasn't sure on what motor was in it, but he came across a 440. I went with that instead. After all expenses paid, I tried to move to Montana in it, from California. It didn't get to far. . .didn't even get out of state. In short, I picked it up, and took it to my uncle's place in Simi Valley to take off the top end.



The rings seem to be in good shape, and cylinder walls look decent. Some shine, and some cross hatching.
I just took the heads to a guy, who is very professional, and thought the heads were fine as well, but the wrong head gaskets were installed. They blocked the water jackets on the heads themselves. So, I'm currently waiting on the friendly NAPA guy to order the correct head gasket set.

In the meanwhile, I have a short that I need to chase in the ignition switch. Everything is fine until the key hits metal on the dash  I'm updating all the outside lights, and waiting on a call from a local winnebago dealer on tail light lenses, and a door hinge.

Here are some interior shots:





THANKS FOR LOOKING. This is just the beginning. . .

It's a sickness :)rotflmao

[strykersd]

Oh it definitely is a sickness!  And as I'm learning with these old motor homes you can spend a small fortune bringing them up to date.  Cool rig tho! 

[legomybago]

That looks like a neat one. Always liked the 72' Chieftains.

[moezart]

Sure wish I caught this thread before I purchased a 440-3 head gasket set.

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=7891.0

The head gaskets do work, except for the water jackets for the 413 heads. They do not match. Like the thread above explains, exhaust gaskets are completely different, along with the water pump gaskets. At least the thermostat housing gasket works 

I don't think I'll have problems getting home to Montana, 1400 mile trip from California, with the head gasket set. It ran cool the whole time. Once I get it home, I'm sure I'll tear into it again. I want to match port the runners on the intake and heads. I haven't found a aluminum intake to fit these? I wanted the Torker II, but on a limited budget and really do not want anymore hassles this far away from home. I did, however, put the expense into the pertronix HEI conversion, 727 RV shift kit, and an additional transmission cooler for the return side transmission line. It's all up hill from here.

[legomybago]

So you put a 440 short block in the Chieftain....You have a 413 complete top end. BUT you have a gasket set for the 440 top end?? Is that what Im reading?

[Rickf1985]

A Torker II?!! That is a high RPM manifold, you will have no bottom end grunt at all. In other words, it will be a dog! A very thirsty one at that. For an RV you need a Performer Plus manifold and an RV cam if you are going to modify the motor.

And Lego, your inbox is full.

[moezart]

Lego, that's what dealing with at the moment. 440 was supposed to be rebuilt, but thinking it's a overhaul at best. The suppose mechanic left the 413 heads on, which I took to a local machine shop, and he said they look fine. They only gaskets that worked were the head, and thermostat housing. . .oh, valve stem seals, which will be for another date, like when I get it home. Am I better off getting 440 heads from an RV? At a later date, of course.

Thanks for that input Rick, I thought Torker meant for torque. Lol. I do plan on a RV cam at a later date. Funds are limited at the moment, and my uncle's neighborhood is bugging that I have it on the street. I have a permit to park it there up to the 28. I have most of it back together. I'm just waiting on the valley pan to arrive at my friendly Napa auto parts store. I'll spend thanksgiving with my uncle and hopefully I'm off and running.

So, you are saying there is a performer series intake that will fit?

[Rickf1985]

I am sure there is but if you are going to change to 440 heads then you might as well wait. I am not sure what Dodge manifolds fit what. Go to Edelbrock's web site and check it out. If they interchange then I would get it, if they do not I would hold off till you get the 440 heads. I am thinking the 413 heads may be higher compression? you may have pinging issues if they are. Been 40 years since I worked on the Dodge big blocks.

I went and looked, you are in luck, the 413, 426 and 440 all use the same intake.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/manifolds/chrysler/performer-bb.shtml

[legomybago]

If you put 440 heads on it you'll have to change the exhaust manifolds too...and probably something else i?? i?? lol.....Im a little lost here, I don't understand why you don't just order the 413 gasket set and put it together correctly, 413's have water running through the intake, better for cooling.. I think you can run 413 heads on a 440 short block?? The web would answer that question...I'd love to have a 413 with an over-drive tranny in my FMC. I hope you get her going over the holiday week

[classicrockfanatic]

I thought I'd throw my two cents into the ring. I just recently converted my 413 RB to a 440 RB. There could be a couple of problems you might run into, with putting the 413 heads onto a 440 block. While the long block only differs by cylinder size, the top end has some quarks.

besides the gasket water ports. The 413 head will have extra water ports to the pump too, to accomodate additional water flushing. The water pump itself is a strange 5 bolt configuration, and has outlets into the block, as well as heads. Also, the water from the heads, seems to have a bypass line( dont ask me how it works ) that appears to pass coolant thru the air intake manifold as well. If you're not upset at the loss of cooling potential, you could probably use a 4 bolt water pump and a standard air intake. But to optimize the 413 hardware, you will need to use the same set of water pump and air intake manifold.

One other word of caution, I hope you have better luck, but I was never able to locate the exhaust manifold gaskets for the 413 head. it has a strange offset pattern, easily differentiated from the standard linear 440 patter, I ended up making my own, which was its own ordeal.

Anyways, I hope this  may be of some help.





P.S. I can send you the cad files for exhaust gaskets, if you want. 

[moezart]

That cad file would come in handy classicrockfanatic. You never know.

You can still find the gaskets
http://www.jegs.com/i/Fel+Pro/375/MS9705B/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710678087&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=pla-210346141991&catargetid=230006180037475004&cadevice=m&gclid=CNrbucGqsdACFUNsfgodDwUC6Q

http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/catalog/dodge~truck.html?3593=271539&3671=1002&r=1&gclid=COisjeWqsdACFU6UfgodSVkOqQ

Thanks for the link Rick, I'll definitely use it in the future.

Yeah guys, Lego, I'm kinda scratching my head why I can be such a big dummy sometimes. I knew about the water pump, and exhaust being different. When ordering the 440 head gasket set, I had a momentary lapse of reason. W% When I installed the head gaskets and went to grab the exhaust gaskets is when everything swirled back together in my mind! Big dummy! They are still usable, and I sprayed copper gasket sealer on them, but the water pump gaskets were toast! So, I ordered them today, hopefully in tomorrow. . . Maybe Monday  The new valley pan will be in tomorrow.

I still need to chase a short in the ignition switch. When the key hits metal on the dash, it grounds out and sparks. To the point it gets very HOT!

https://m.1aauto.com
They carry a lot of parts for these rigs.

I'm installing new running lights. California and Idaho don't like the lights out. Still need to install the shift kit and HEI kit. I just wanted it running before neighbors gripe again.

It ran great before I broke it down, except it had compression issues on the low end. It was great at 45 and above, but take off was slow, and when I would brake it would want to dive and stall on me. It had water leaking between the heads and intake. So, considering it was suppose to be a rebuilt, I wanted to see what was going on inside. I'm somewhat satisfied to see rings are good, and hash marks on the cylinder walls. He just did a sloppy job putting it together. . .so, here I am. Lol

[moezart]

Someone was saying this is a cruise control part, but I don't have cruise control.




I'm thinking about bypassing this for now, it could be what's giving me bad vacuum?

[M & J]

I said it was a cruise control doohicky, but its the vacuum actuator for the cruise control. You may not have cruise now, but at some point the coach did.  And yes, if the vacuum line is still connected it could be causing a leak.

[moezart]

Aw yes, thank you for clearing that up for me more M & J 
I'll definitely bypass it for now, but once I have it hooked up and on the road, does that mean I can climb out of the drivers seat and go do other things in back?  :)rotflmao  D:oH! . . JK!

[Rickf1985]

Other people have done it so that must mean you can too. Of coarse your ending will probably be just like theirs was, A place in the Darwin awards.

Why don't you just source a set of 440 heads and be done with it? Then you do not have to worry about what mixes with what.

[moezart]

Yeah Rick, that would be the most logical solution. That will be for the next build when I get home. My main mission right now, simple, but showing difficulty is to get home. Then, let the true build begin!
I moved from California to Montana, and the rest of my family is up there waiting for me to get home, except for my uncle here. Since the RV didn't make it, and broke down. We left it behind from the initial move. I came back down a few weeks ago to rescue it. I'm confident that it will make it once I have it back together.

I'm putting my motor number down for future reference: 4006630-440-3

I'm sure I'll need that number to match correct 440 heads for it.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Please be aware that 440-1 (car) and 440-3 (MH/truck/commercial) heads are different.
440-3:
Head has extra coolant passages.
Head uses a smaller peanut spark plug that is tapered (no spark plug gasket like on the 440-1 head).
Intake has water passages that allow water to pass under the carburetor.

For a 413 head, you access the plugs from above the exhaust manifold
For a 440 head, you access the plugs from below the exhaust manifold

The 413 (MS 9705 B) and 440 (MS 90029) heads use different exhaust manifold bolt patterns (not interchangeable) therefore different gaskets.

413 (Fel-pro MS 96001) and 440 (Fel-pro MS 96000) valley pans are different.  440 has the center water ports on each side.  440 Intake gasket MS 90175

I would suggest you locate a doner 440-3 so you can grab all the accessories (water pump, heads, Int & Exh manifolds.  Will save you lots of headaches.

[Rickf1985]

Dave, that is interesting about the intake water passages. Note the link for the Edelbroke manifolds, the 413, 426 and 440 all use the same manifold so either the water passages are blocked or there is some sort of compromise. Either way I am guessing the heads do not depend on the water crossover.

[moezart]

Dave, that is a wealth of information. Thanks for adding it to my thread. It will come in handy in the future.

Here's a pic of the water pump housing. . . Kinda resembles a sea creature of some sort



Classicrockfanatic I sure do like the looks of your motor, but I noticed you converted to a 440 water pump housing? Plugged the water jackets on the front of the heads?

Never mind, I see the passage to the heads.

[classicrockfanatic]

Thanks  .
I try to make good looking stuff. But I gotta tell you, by the time I'm done, I'm usually sick of looking at it myself. 

[LJ-TJ]

I can second Dave's advice as I had to replace a head on my 440-3 and had to have it shipped all the way from California to Canada. I don't know about the rest of the world but the 440-3 stuff is hard to come by. I may have located one up here finally and am going to buy it for my just in case collection. Hm?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Some 413 / 440 differences

440 MS 96000 1976-1972 BL V8 440CI 7.2L; 1958 CHR V8 361CI 5.9L; 1960-1959 CHR V8 383CI 6.3L; 1965-1959 CHR V8 413CI 6.8L; 1965-1964 CHR V8 426CI 7.0L; 1978-1966 CHR V8 440CI 7.2L; 1980-1972 DT L/D V8 440CI 7.2L; 1980-1978 DT M/D V8 440CI 7.2L; 1977-1967 MON V8 440CI	413 MS 96001 1977-1960 CHI V8 413CI 6.7L; 1977-1960 DT H/D V8 413CI 6.7L; 1977-1960 DT M/D V8 413CI 6.7L; 1977-1962 MAC H/D V8 413CI 6.7L

While you can see the larger hole on a 440 Valley pan, currently, Fel-Pro lists the MS 96000 for both applications.  MS 96001 is no longer made (New Old Stock Only).  Additionally, the 413 is only listed for cars, not trucks.

Fel-Pro 440CI Gaskets
Fel-Pro 413CI Gaskets

The 440-3 is a commercial engine that originally was designed for stationary oil well pump drilling.  Being commercial, they wanted to beef up the cooling system.  Even the 440-3 thermostat is a unique design.

[moezart]

Ok, I have the motor back together and finishing up little things.



I drained the motor oil, and read that these truck 440'so take 9 qts of oil. Here is the thing, I cannot find the dipstick to this thing? RV motors don't come with a dip stick?

This thread identities oil quantity:
http://goodoldrvs.ning.com/m/discussion?id=2093474%3ATopic%3A146260

I'm not liking the idea of guessing. Anyone else run into this?

[LJ-TJ]

If you watch when he walks around to the driver's side of the engine you'll see the dip stick sticking out the front of the rad. as he continues around to the drivers side you'll see were the dip stick goes down pass the exhaust manifold to the block. Should be a hole down on the lip where the oil pan bolts to the block.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OanjZQ6QXnc

[legomybago]

Your dipstick enters the engine block on the left side (drivers side) down near the motor mount. Basically in between the mount and the starter