Water Pump Conversion

[WyzrdX]

Hello everyone.


I guess I will start with the basics before getting to my questions.


I was given a contract that was supposed to be 3 weeks and turned into 12 months. So for 8 months we have been stationary in our '88 HR Aluma-Lite XL MH. Now the contract is drawing to a close and I am soon to be back on the road. I recently ripped out the cabinet and counter top to replace due to water (sink) damage. I am also working on replacing all existing water lines with PEX. But in order for us to get back on the road for any distance I think it is high time I did some mechanical work to the engine. There are a few things I am doing but I want to get some feedback.


These are the things I want to do along with why. Mostly I had the oil changed when I purchased it but that is all I have done.

   
• Replace Alternator.  It seems the last few time I have started the MH and let it run my Alternator is not charging the way it should. I assume it is the original and battery seems drained when trying to start it.
• Replace Water Pump. Again I assume it is the original. The engine had only 60K miles but AFAIK the original owner had let it sit in storage for about 6 years prior to me purchasing it. I have driven approx 600 miles and temps were a bit warmer than my last 454 but still within safe ranges.
• Replace thermostat. Replacing WP so obviously Thermostat.
• Remove Mechanical Fan and adding 2 Thermostatically controlled Electric Push Fans
• I am considering converting to a serpentine belt system.
• I also want to replace the Fuel Filters.

OK now for my questions.

   
• The Alternator is a 105A. Would it hurt to move to a 140A Alternator?
• Is there any benefit to changing from the v-belt to serpentine other than belt ware and temp? (I have converted my work truck from V to serpentine so I know what kind of performance gain I got on a 1 ton just unsure of MH)
• Replacing the Water Pump, I have several options. Stock Flow, High Flow, and Electric. Is there any benefit to electric vs mechanical? Or what about High Flow?

Sorry if there is a lot of questions but honestly could not find anything in the boards that was much help.

[stanDman111]

lots of work ahead of you

[Rickf1985]

Ok, In order of asking. The alternator, you can replace it with a 140 but you will not gain much because you will only charge at 140 amps for the first 30 seconds or so before the regulator drops the rate down. The 105 will create less heat and last longer. The only benefit I see to change to serpentine is you are sadistic and like to subject yourself to pain. N:( :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao Seriously though, that is a LOT of work to change out all of that stuff and all you gain is the fact that you now have one belt and if it breaks you are dead on the side of the road. With the V-belts there is redundancy on the water pump which is the one that will keep you going in an emergency. Plus, can you even get to the idler when it is mounted on the motor home to change a serp belt?
The water pump, Are you sure you need a new pump? Is it making noise or leaking? The temp issue is probably not caused by the pump. It is more likely caused by a gauge issue than anything. Get a laser temp gun and verify th actual temp on the thermostat housing before ripping the entire front of the motor home and engine off to replace the pump. If you are that far into it you might consider the timing chain also, Once you see how many brackets have to come off to get to the pump you will see why I say that. It is a MAJOR job. If you do go through with it use a standard flow water pump. Hi flow moves water through the radiator too fast and it does not have a chance to cool and therefore the engine runs hot. Electric pumps are for hot rods and race cars and not for full time use.

Fans, Most units have electric fans in front of the radiator hooked into a relay that will come on if it gets too hot and when the AC is on. This is in addition to the thermostatic clutch fan. I do not think the electric fans are enough on their own.

[WyzrdX]

Thanks Rick for the reply. First thing, yes I have a big job ahead of me and its not daunting to me. And I have plenty of experience with complete rebuilds so this isnt scary.

When I got this from the PO it had sat for approx 6 years in storage. He opened the Barn/Shed where it was stored, Cleaned out a few squirrel nests (he said), flushed the water system, replaced the belts and hoses on the engine, changed the oil, refilled the radiator, added fuel and then started it up and let it run for approx an hour. Now all of this is according to him. He did have meticulously detailed records. Everything from Genny maintenance and usage to oil changes to RV system repairs. If nothing else he took care of this machine. His last service was before an 800 mile trip and he had new plugs and wires done, Oil change, and Radiator flushed. After the trip it was parked until I bought it.

Alternator is a necessity and a quick and relatively cheap job. And if there is no real benefit to switching to a 140A (I have added a few electronics such as, Back-Up Cam and a new in dash Navigation unit.) then its cheaper to go with the 105A.

As for the water pump, I have not laser checked the temp and I wondered if it were a faulty gauge or even the thermostat causing it to appear hot (via gauge) but I am thinking of replacing simply because of the fact he had it in storage for so long. I am sure it was well cared for but when thinking of damage possibility while on the road if pump fails, I just figured I would be on the safer side to just replace the pump before I go. And if I do ill stick with the standard flow. I know electric pumps are for rods just wondered if there were any benefit to them in an RV. I think I will leave the fans as they are. That's just a project I was considering since I will be in there.

Now about the serpentine conversion. I have done 3 such conversions. My first was on a 74 Brave with a 440. I actually increased from 5 mpg to 6.7 mpg just after the conversion. Also there was almost a 30 degree temp difference. Serpentine belts run cooler and last much longer than V-Belts. I was just wondering if there were any other benefits I didnt know about. But alas I am still not sure I want to do it on this one. Like I said I have done it before and its a chore replacing pulleys but not unmanageable. But if I replace the water pump and decide to not do the conversion. I definitely can't  go back and do it later or its a wasted of time and money.

Serpentine driven water pumps for the 454 run in the opposite direction than a v-driven pump. So I would have to replace the pump again.
So I guess it is back to the planning stage to decide what I really need to do beside the alternator. But my first job is to get the accurate temp at the thermostat so I can decide on the pump or fix the gauge/thermostat. I will update once I have the temps.

[tmsnyder]

What Rick said above, with two additions.   Moreso than the water pump if anything related to cooling is in need of attention, it would be the radiator or fan clutch.  When you noticed the elevated temperature, did you notice the engine fan roaring??  You should hear that thing kick into action at high temps. 


Heck you may just need to clean the exterior of the radiator off.


105 amps should be fine.

[WyzrdX]

Hey TM,


Yeah I checked the radiator and it is clean on the outside. I didnt notice any roaring with the heat I do hear it kick in but not loud. And the heat was within range on the gauge just on the higher side. I was considering getting a new gauge with a digital readout for both Temp and oil pressure. My real concern since we live in this, As I am traveling I am always concerned with temps. Even in our drive around, I watch the gauges and I hate idiot lights.

[TerryH]

Whomever coined the phrase 'idiot light' deserves five stars. The goof that invented them should be made to eat them all.

[tmsnyder]

When that fan clutch engages it should sound like a jet engine taking off.  I wonder if your fan clutch is in need of replacement, they don't last forever.


interesting video looking at a bad fan clutch:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SbW1SDtMvg

[Rickf1985]

Or it may not be getting hot enough to fully engage. The clutch is usually pretty much fully engaged for a minute or so when you rirst start it in the morning and then the fan drops out just about completely. If you are not hearing this then the clutch may need replacing. I got the the super duty one and I have regretted it since it kicks in far too early, every time the thermostat opens the fan clutch kicks in going down the road.

[WyzrdX]

Ill check out the clutch when I start it this week. I never thought that may be the cause.

[Rickf1985]

It would only be the cause around town, On the highway the air coming in the front is more than the fan will pull.

[tmsnyder]

This is probably true most of the time except on long hill climbs.   I hear the fan engage after the engine temp climbs above normal for a while, similar roar as when first starts up.  That fan really roars when it's working and moving air. 

[WyzrdX]

When I first got it when it would sit there idling while I was warming it up I could hear the fan clearly. Recently I haven't noticed it as much although that could be because I have grown used to it and therefore have turned it out. Tomorrow I should be starting it up and I will listen for it again maybe then I'll have some idea if it's the clutch.

[WyzrdX]

OK Here is where I stand.

This AM I started her up and got her settled down. I ran her for about 25 min before I opened up the DH and took temp readings. Before opening up, I think I heard the fan clutch kick in but not much. At idle, temp got higher than center on the gauge. Temp was showing between the center and the red. Once I opened the DH, I managed to take the temp reading at the head and the intake. Head temp was 232 and intake was 201. Took the readings 4X and approx 2 min apart for each and only varied by a few degrees each.

I did hear the clutch engage but not extremely loud. There is an electric fan already in front of the radiator and it was running most of the time. It also is clear of debris.

So I assume either I have a bad thermostat or bad fan clutch. Unless there is something I am missing.

[Rickf1985]

What was the temp on the thermostat housing? Was it open. is the area between the radiator and the AC condensor clean? I would change the thermostat long before all that other stuff. Looking through your list of things to do I noticed you did not mention the heater hoses that run all the way to the rear heater on most of these units with a stop at the hot water heater. I also noticed you did not mention the very old fuel lines on top of the gas tank that will be in dire need of replacement by now. Not trying to tell you what you need to do with your own vehicle but the internals of e 454 are historically very durable and seldom need replacement before 75,000 miles. The stuff you are wanting to replace would be much better left alone in place of fuel lines and old water lines. Also a very good idea to rebuild the fuel pressure regulator before it starts to leak, and it will. And when it does it will leak BAD!!!

Your vehicle, do as you please.
Checking head temps with a laser gun is very inaccurate because you do not know if you are on a steam port or a water passage through the head or along the the head, or maybe not even on a water passage at all and reading combustion temps. Temps in the manifold of water just coming out of the head will always be hotter that the engine average. That is why you have to establish the temp at the thermostat and if in fact it is opening at the set temp.

[M & J]

Having the fan shroud in place also makes a huge difference.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Having the fan shroud in place also makes a huge difference.

[WyzrdX]

I did check the temp at the thermostat and forgot to mention it. It was erratic at best. I could not get the same reading twice but it fell between 214 and 244.

Fuel lines were replaced when I got it. I have never rebuilt a pressure regulator so ill have to get someone to do that for me.






*edit*
Mind you all the temp readings were done while sitting idle. I assume they would be different once moving and is one reason I am going to be adding better gauges (read more accurate).

[Rickf1985]

I would replace the thermostat, or your temp gun is off but if it has not been done recently it would be a good bet and is not that hard to do. The regulator is extremely easy to rebuild, four screws, a diaphragm and a spring. Finding it and getting to it are usually the problem. Mine was actually built over behind a cabinet partition! I have a thread on here somewhere about it.

[WyzrdX]

I had already planned to replace the thermostat when I replace the water pump. My only concern with NOT replacing the pump is the fact it sat for so long prior to purchase. The laser was purchased in December and AFAIK is accurate with other uses.


I will look for the thread. Finding the Pressure Regulator will have to be a priority. I will search for it and hopefully get it done ASAP if it was not done with the fuel lines.

[CapnDirk]

Do a search on pressure regulator and/or holly.  Rebuild kit is only about $10, and four screws.  Piece of cake.  The search will yield pictures to so you know what to look for.  Generally in the area of the fuel tank.

[tmsnyder]

Going back to to the original post plan of action (bullet items below):

   
• Replace Alternator.  It seems the last few time I have started the MH and let it run my Alternator is not charging the way it should. I assume it is the original and battery seems drained when trying to start it.

Alternators usually just stop working at all, lock up, put out max voltage, or pulse, etc when they die.  They have some quantifiable problem.  What do you mean it's not charging?   I would sooner suspect the battery is in need of replacement.  They don't last forever.   How old is the battery?  If it's over 4 years or so, it's due for replacement.

   
• Replace Water Pump. Again I assume it is the original. The engine had only 60K miles but AFAIK the original owner had let it sit in storage for about 6 years prior to me purchasing it. I have driven approx 600 miles and temps were a bit warmer than my last 454 but still within safe ranges.

This is going to save you a bunch of work:  it's not the water pump causing your elevated running temperature.  They don't stop pumping when they go bad, they leak out the weep hole on the snout.  This would be a waste of time and money, don't change it.

   
• Replace thermostat. Replacing WP so obviously Thermostat.

Definitely do this, thermostat is cheap and again they don't last forever. 

   
• Remove Mechanical Fan and adding 2 Thermostatically controlled Electric Push Fans

Don't do this, waste of time and money.  The factory engineers knew what they were doing.  Do replace the fan clutch, they don't last forever and a weakly engaging one could cause the symptoms you are seeing.  They are a bit of coin, I think the one I got was like $90 for the AC Delco brand.  Don't buy junk, you'll regret it.

   
• I am considering converting to a serpentine belt system.

Don't do this, it's a waste of time and as Rick said you lose redundancy on the vital systems.

   
• I also want to replace the Fuel Filters.

Good idea, if your 88 is the same as my 90 this is in your front-most passenger side baggage compartment.  Remove the two screws holding on the carpeted rectangle of plywood facing the door, the filter is behind it on the frame.

Rick brought up the fuel regulator, I haven't touched mine but it may be located on the passenger side back near the fill neck.  I think I saw it last night near the tag axle and frame, if it's like my 1990.


From the readings you are getting on the IR reader compared to your dash gauge, it seems like your gauge is working fine.  Those readings are hot for an engine that's supposed to be running at 195F and the gauge is in general agreement.


And the electric fans also confirm that it's running a bit hot, those don't come on until the sensor hits 211F I think.  And the sensor is in the radiator unless it's been moved!!!  So  you're 211 plus in the radiator, you must not be moving any air over the radiator, my money is on the fan clutch.



Hope this helps.

[legomybago]

I did hear the clutch engage but not extremely loud. There is an electric fan already in front of the radiator and it was running most of the time. It also is clear of debris.

The only time you should hear that fan clutch is at cold start up, then it should shut down after a minute or so... As long as you are only idling the rig.
The electric fans up front should just mainly be condenser cooling fans for the AC/defrost system. I have no idea if they are thermo controlled by the engine??
If you get out and drive it, do the temps drop?? If so, radiator.

[Rickf1985]

The fan clutch is thermostatically controlled so they lag a little behind the electric fans which are directly in the water. The fan has to feel the hot air coming off the radiator before kicking in plus I believe they do not fully engage until about 220 plus to give a cushion so it is not coming on every time the stat opens like mine does.

[tmsnyder]

Lego, the fan clutch engages the fan when hot air from the radiator heats it up to the setpoint, just above the thermostat temperature, ....when it is working.  You will hear that fan kick in after working the engine hard for a while, like climbing a hill.   It will sound like a roaring noise under the doghouse.  Idling in the driveway, mine (with brand new fan clutch) will kick in gently from time to time, noticeable but not a roar.


But when the fan clutch is no longer working, it doesn't engage, doesn't make the fan move air, and allows the radiator to get hotter than the fan clutch setpoint temperature.


The electric fans in front of the radiator are tied into the A/C system, yes, but they also run if the radiator gets hotter than it's supposed to.  Appendix 2-1 of the P30 service manual shows it, page 2-12, it's a thermo switch that closes at 221F, in the radiator.  So if the OP's radiator is running at over 221, that's hot.   It's either the radiator is plugged up inside or outside, or there's not enough air moving over the radiator.


Easy way to check would be to get a good sized centrifugal blower, like a 1/3 hp squirrel cage blower and direct the air at the radiator.  See if that air flow makes the engine temperature drop down.  If no change then it's the radiator.  If it does drop down then it's the fan clutch.