Dodge 360, Holley Snipers, 4BBL Intakes, and HEI Conversion

[87Itasca]

Boy, this is going to be a lot of fun. I hope, anyway.


My friends have decided they want to do some upgrades to their '72 Tioga. We were originally going to go with a 4 bbl carb replacement, but they've decided they were going to keep this long haul, and want to go with fuel injection.  I don't know if anyone here has experience with these systems or not, but the Holley Sniper seems to be a good bang for the buck.


My questions involve the intake and HEI conversion for now.


What is the best way to upgrade the ignition in this to a modern style with no breaker points? I'm sure it must be illustrated somewhere. This distributor sounds like it is almost "bolt on and go" -
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=201116263753&category=33690&pm=1&ds=0&t=1518443887000&ver=0



This one seems like it is the whole kit and kaboodle - http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=322548203688&category=33690&pm=1&ds=0&t=1503765048000&ver=0

I'd imagine most any 4 BBL intake would work with the Sniper EFI, it looks to be a direct bolt on to a 4 BBL intake, so what would be a good intake to go with? Edelbrock Performer? Not looking to do any work to the bottom end, but we figure upgrading the ignition, fuel, and airflow would be a good start, and it would likely gain a good 20 hp in the process.


My main concern is the EFI needs to 'learn' a base map, then it will adjust on the fly. I fear I'll catch hell trying to get it timed right, and the two systems will fight each other and I'll never get it running  :)rotflmao

[Rickf1985]

Well, first off, you need to be posting this in the Dodge section since I was thinking of answers for a big block Chevy til I noticed the link. I would go with an Edelbrock Performer intake and a DUI HEI distributor. The Davis is a bit more money but when you call them and tell them what it is going in they dial in a curve just for that application.

[Froggy1936]

??He states a P30 Chev Engine   For wich should already have HEI . W% Frank

[87Itasca]

Is this not in the Dodge section?

[Rickf1985]

OOP'S   I think I was looking at your sig and I was previously on the Chevy section. Yes this is the Dodge section.

[87Itasca]

No worries Rick.


Looks like the EFI system is going to require a square bore intake, and I'm looking at the Edelbrock 2176K. Should fit the bill, unless anyone can recommend another worth investigating?


I'm really hoping RE: timing, we can mark the old distributor where we take it out, and get the new one to drop into place just so. It says the 2176 has 180 degrees of adjustment, so we should be able to rotate the cap and get it running, then tweak it from there. My main concern is the performance of the fuel injection while the timing is out. We cannot see the timing marks on the crank pulley in this one (no access up top), so we just kept advancing the cap until there was some pinging, then backed it off a smidge last time.

[Sasquatch]

I put a Powerjection III on my 440.  They do require a square bore intake or you can get an adapter to go from spread bore to square if you can handle the extra inch or so in height.  I installed an Edelbrock dual plane manifold in mine.  It worked great.  I did modify the dual plane manifold into an "air gap" by machining down the divider between the left and right barrels about an inch giving it more of an air chamber between the two sides.  You can find Youtube videos on this.  The injection systems seem to like this quite a bit vs. carbs.

Bottom line is once you get the injection system set up and running right, you will never go back to a carb.  It is worth every penny.

I do have a suggestion though that will add a bit of work, but save you tons long term.  The fuel pumps that are shipped with these injection systems are junk.  I have been through 3.  Do yourself a favor and get a fuel pump from a 90's era Ford F150-250 and use that.  Get a good one, not a cheap one though.  I bought a Bosch and found it on line for about $80.  It should run for many years without an issue.

[87Itasca]

Damn! I just bought the Master kit with the pump.


Any chance you could get me a part number? Those are designed for in tank use, not sure how I would modify the intake port for use with a nipple. Also, I'm not sure how your system is designed, but the pump on this must produce a minimum of 60 PSI. I seem to remember MFI Fords had a lower spec than that.

[87Itasca]

Welllllllllll.......... passengers side exhaust manifold is cracked in two. Was poorly welded, and broke again at some point.


Will cast iron manifolds from a newer application 360 work? The heat riser won't be necessary anymore.


If not....anyone put headers in a B300 van?  :)rotflmao

[Sasquatch]

I do not have the part number handy.  The 90's era F150-250's had two pumps.  Three actually, one lift pump in each tank, and one on the frame rail.  That is the one you want.  I did the whole system, ford fuel pump, filter, quick disconnect fittings and plastic hoses.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Sorry to come into this late however, I think you will not be satisfied with the 4 barrel setup because it is way to big for the stock 360 application which will most likely have less than 300Hp.  You should have gotten the 2 barrel setup.  Re-read the description for your kit.  I read it to say it includes a in-line fuel pump, not an in-tank one.

There a many selections for a HEI distributor

You could use either stock manifolds or headers.  A set of small headers would provide more airflow.  Either way, you will still have to install a O2 sensor and bung in the exhaust tubing.

[Rickf1985]

Dave, I think he was referring to the Ford pump that Sasquach was mentioning and that one is an external pump.


You are going to have to set the timing on the base number that they want it set at, you cannot set it by ear with a computer controlled injection setup. I am not sure on the Dodges but the Chevys have the timing mark on the bottom and you use #5 instead of #1. There has to be some way of using a timing light on there, Dave?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Not sure about a 360 Van setup.  440-3 Class A is best done via the right front wheel well.

[Elandan2]

On mine, I set the engine at the correct mark with a wrench and then painted a line on the balancer and the flange of the oil pan. Much easier to see.

[Rickf1985]

All of the Dodge vans I worked on in the fleet I serviced had the timing marks in the usual spots on the front pulley. Not always the easiest thing to get to but you could always do it. I don't see where the camper would be any different. The earliest 360 vans I remember working on were 76's.

[87Itasca]

Hi Dave,


The 4BBL setup is designed for applications from 200-650 HP, per Holley. They said it would work for my application, I sure hope it will. That's a big chunk of money already spent. The computer can lean out the fuel mixture as needed, hopefully it will be enough. Not sure if all four flow at once, or if the rear two kick in under a certain load. I do wish I had seen your post earlier, so I could have specifically asked that. No one from Holley suggested it though.


Pardon me if this sounds ignorant, but plenty of 5.0 and 5.7L V8's came with 4 barrel carbs back in the day, I'd imagine a 5.9L in an RV application could do fine with a 4 barrel in it, but I could very well be wrong.

[turbinebronze]

On my 318 (almost a 360) the timing mark is in a poor location. I set it at TDC with a coat hanger in the spark plug hole (turning the engine by hand), then using a mirror to check the timing mark. I made a pointer/locater bolted to a front pan bolt that reached the balancer, and marked the balancer. I use an advance meter timing light to read the timing when running using that mark and pointer.
  Just my 2 cents, Craig.

[tmsnyder]

There is also an inexpensive screw-in piston stop available for sale that will stop the #1 piston on its way up as you rotate it clockwise (by hand, gently, with all spark plugs removed), then around the other way CCW .  1/2 way between those 2 points is a real accurate TDC mark. 


At TDC the crank can rotate through quite a few degrees with very little movement in the piston, I'm not sure I'd be able to feel it with a coathanger wire but then again I've never tried 


I don't think the 4 barrel version of this is too big, there seems to be some overlap between it and the two barrel version.

[Rickf1985]

It all depends on the size of the injectors they are using. 21# or lower and it will be fine. Higher than that and the pulse width would be so short that it would be unstable and would run rough and you would never be able to dial it in. I am sure they have it figured out, small injectors will support a surprising amount of horsepower if it is naturally aspirated. It is when you go to supercharging or turbocharging that you need bigger injectors.

[87Itasca]

We're hitting a bit of a snag with the HEI conversion right now. Distributor is dropped in, the coil we were provided likely will not work. It's a more modern square coil, with an aluminum heatsink.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-273-318-340-360-BLUE-SMALL-Cap-HEI-Distributor-50K-COIL-Spark-Plug-Wires/322548203688?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


Don't really have a place to mount it on the intake, and mounting on the firewall and running a 3' coil wire would look ridiculous. We would like to use a round style coil like the original and reuse the original mounting bracket), but all the ones I've seen say "Use with external resistor", while the HEI kit says "DO NOT USE A RESISTOR WITH THIS SYSTEM".


So, what options do I have here? Do I need a MSD Blaster coil with a low primary resistance, or is there some other workaround here? What do we do with the old ballast resistor and associated wiring? IIRC, this HEI kit just needs 12V and GND, and it does its own thing.


We did something similar tmsnyder to get TDC. Distributor dropped in nicely when we put it in, but I think the rotor might be off a smidge. Thankfully there is infinite adjustment on these caps for tweaking.


Rick, it says four 100#/hr injectors, but the kit says it works on 200-650hp. This should be somewhere around 230 new I think, so we are in the ballpark.

[Rickf1985]

Yea, I was thinking multipoint injection on those numbers. 100# x 4 is going to be a bit heavy so you will have a short duty cycle but have to see how it runs. I am sure that if it turns out they are too big them Holley will substitute smaller ones for you. As far as the coil, I would either go with a MSD blaster or fab up a bracket that will bolt to a pair of the intake manifold bolts for the one you have. You have to be sure you have the timing set where they tell you to have it right from the beginning or the self learn feature will get all kinds of confused. Like the others have said, line up the marks with the engine off and then go below and make your own pointer and a new mark on the balancer down there and use a dial back timing light.

[87Itasca]

This operation has all but been a success. Still doing some preliminary runs, dialing a few things in, but it starts right up and runs smooth under a variety of load conditions. Huge difference in operation from when it entered the shop.


The only complaint I think I'm going to deal with is the noise. The sound of air rushing over the throttle blades is quite loud with the cover off, and I suspect it will be quite loud with the cover on as well.


Would something like Dynamat lined inside the cover make a noticeable difference? What have you folks done to quiet the noise? I need to do it to my motorhome as well, really.


Our exhaust temps are a bit of a concern as well. We are running hotter on the right bank by about 120 degrees. Temps are a good deal hotter than I think we should be seeing. After a drive with sustained speeds of 55-65, we are at 720* on one bank, and 850+ on the other, checked with an infared gun. Vehicle drives well though. Thinking we might need a bit more advance by hand, and hopefully that will drop the temps down some more.
AFR is set at 14.2, we dropped it down to 13.5, and still had the same temp difference. The one manifold is a brand new cast iron replacement, while the other is original. I wouldn't think that would affect it too much, honestly.
No vacuum leaks can be found around the EFI or intake itself. Vacuum is holding a steady 20 in. or so. 

[tmsnyder]

Here's the fine print, oh nevermind you fixed it


You might be getting different air flows across each side, depends on the baffling.


What is the timing on these 360s?  Did they have garbage SMOG timing like chevy at that time?  I put in aftermarket vacuum can and mechanical advance springs/arms to get rid of the smog timing and it runs great.  If it's running some weird low initial advance with lots added in mechanically then it might explain the hot exhaust.  What's your initial timing supposed to be?

[87Itasca]

It's an Edelbrock 2176 Dual Plane setup, if that is any help.


The timing specs I have found online are 2.5* BTDC for base timing.

[Rickf1985]

Probably a couple things involved in the high exhaust temps. First and foremost is the A.I.R. system injecting air into the exhaust right where you are testing it. It is in the process of burning off any excess fuel right there. Making it richer will just give higher temps at the manifold for that reason. Another reason may be due to a EGR not working as it should. I am assuming you still have all of the emissions stuff hooked up. You need to go over every inch of all of those vacuum lines and make sure they are all in good condition. Are you in a state where you need to have the emissions crap? The timing sounds like it is a bit too late but the specs should be on the label on the air cleaner.


DAMN!!!!! There I go again. Whenever I reply to a post I always look at the posters signature to see what they have so I know what engine I am dealing with. I keep forgetting you are working on something different. So before I change what I said, does this engine have the air injection tubes on the exhaust manifolds?