Are there glowplugs on Cummings engines?

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Hey diesel gurus.  Our 1995 Itasca doesn't start right up anymore.  I have to turn the key around three times now (in 10 second bursts) to start the engine, and apply the fuel pedal...and then it fires up.  This is after (well after) changing out the fuel filter...and it was starting to get hard to start before I changed the filter around 1000 miles ago.


What could be the cause of this, as I don't want to burn out the starter?  There is no glow plug light...but are there glow plugs on this thing?  It is a Cummings 230 Turbo diesel.  Should I turn the key and just wait for a while before trying to start it?  I tried it once already, but maybe I didn't leave the key on long enough?  No idea, since diesel engines are new to me.


Thanks!


Kev

[Rickf1985]

If it has glow plugs there will be a "wait to start" light on the dash and you wait until that goes out. Does your volt meter drop down pretty low when you turn on the key? That is a sign of glow plugs coming on. Didn't you say you had the manual for that? If it is getting harder to start already then you are going to have serious issues when it get actually cold out so there is something not working. I am not real familiar with the 230 engine, The smaller Cummins in the Dodge pickups have grid heaters on the intake manifold right below where the intake hose attaches. Look for some fairly large electrical connections at the intake in that area. If they are there then it has grid heaters and it should have a wait to start light. There may be a bad relay or fuse.


Did a little searching and I kind of need to know which engine you have as the 230 was offered in a 6BT or a NTC version. The 6BT is the same as the ones used in the Dodge pickup trucks, The NTC would be a small version of the large truck motors. None of them used glow plugs. The BT series all used manifold grid heaters and the NTC could have used a grid heater, an ether injector or nothing at all.

[tmsnyder]

IIRC there are no glow plugs on a cummins, they are only used on IDI engines.  I think you can use starter fluid on them though, unlike the IDI engines such as the 7.3L Ford or 6.5L Chevy.  Starter fluid will destroy them in a hurry.  But iirc it's fine to use on a cummins.


It may have a intake air heater, that may be shot.


I'd also suspect the batteries, how old are they?  I'm looking at my 6 yo batteries in my suburban diesel and thinking it's time for a change soon, we'll see how they perform this winter. Just starting to get cold at night in Buffalo, NY

[tmsnyder]

Try changing the filter again, maybe you got a bad batch of fuel. 


Also it's never a bad idea to use an algacide additive in your fuel, maybe stuff is growing in there.


First off though, collect a sample in a glass jar and see what fuel is going to your engine. What's it look like?

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks guys!  I did use the biocide, so that probably isn't it...and the fuel in the filter bowl is clean.  I'm going to start with a new battery...since the starting battery is 8 years old, and looks like a cheap Walmart type battery with only 600 cranking amps.  Maybe it isn't spinning the engine fast enough to get the compression up fast enough to start right up.  I'm going to put in the biggest, highest cranking amp battery that will fit and see what happens (and at 8 years old, it is well past time for a new battery anyway).  If that doesn't cure the problem, then I'll check to see if this thing has a grid heater and troubleshoot from there.  It is the 6BT engine I believe, turbo diesel.


Kev

[Rickf1985]

It should have two batteries. I have never seen a diesel without two batteries. If it is a 6BT then it has a grid heater and there should be a wait light on the dash. If none of that is working you need to look into that circuit. I avoid ether like the plague on anything but the biggest diesels since it is too easy to get to much in a small engine and blow a head gasket, break a ring or a piston. They bent a rod in one of the tractors where I worked before because they were too proud to ask how to start it. It had a manual pull cable to shut the fuel off and they never pushed it in, they just kept feeding it ether.

[Elandan2]

Ether, AKA Newfie passing gear!!

[TerryH]

 :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao

[ClydesdaleKevin]

It should have two batteries. I have never seen a diesel without two batteries. If it is a 6BT then it has a grid heater and there should be a wait light on the dash. If none of that is working you need to look into that circuit. I avoid ether like the plague on anything but the biggest diesels since it is too easy to get to much in a small engine and blow a head gasket, break a ring or a piston. They bent a rod in one of the tractors where I worked before because they were too proud to ask how to start it. It had a manual pull cable to shut the fuel off and they never pushed it in, they just kept feeding it ether.

Only one starting battery...an old one...and no "wait" light on the dash.

Kev

[Rickf1985]

Look around the intake, the grid heater should be somewhere close to where the air intake hose meets the intake manifold. It will have usually two heavy wires going to it, one hot and one ground. On mine I have two grids stacked one on top of the other.

[Rickf1985]

I can get some pics of mine if that will help. Mine is a later 24 valve but the grid heater should look the same. The injectors and pump will look different.

[tmsnyder]

If there's no light on the dash, maybe theres a relay that's shot and not sending the power to the grid heater and dash light....

[Froggy1936]

 W% Or a burnt out bulb / LED !   i??   Frank

[ClydesdaleKevin]

If there's no light on the dash, maybe theres a relay that's shot and not sending the power to the grid heater and dash light....

When I first bought this thing, there were a couple of relays lying on the floor.  I'll check the wiring and see what I find, as well as the wiring to the grid heater as Rick suggested.

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

I can get some pics of mine if that will help. Mine is a later 24 valve but the grid heater should look the same. The injectors and pump will look different.

That would be quite helpful.  Thanks Rick!

Kev

[Rickf1985]

The relays for the grid heaters are generally pretty close to the heaters themselves due to the amount of current they carry and the size of the wires. I don't know where your battery is but I would think that somewhere in the vicinity of the battery, And a lot of people take the relays out of the circuit in warm weather. Not sure about the 85 but the later ones are temperature controlled so that if it is above 65 degrees the heaters do not cycle. In the pictures you can see the square block inserted in the intake above the manifold and below the intake hose. The hot hares have the rubber covers over them and the ground is on the other side and grounded to the manifold. I was wrong when I said I had two heaters, it is one heater with two stages. When it first comes on both stages come on and after it starts the stages split and come on an off alternately for a couple minutes. This keeps warm air feeding into the cylinders as it warms up. You will notice my injectors are inside the head where yours are mounted from the outside so the lines will look quite a bit different. the last picture is the relay mounted on the fenderwell under the left battery. Note the two batteries.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks Rick!  I'll get under there today and see if I have a grid heater...and then try to trace the wiring back to a relay somewhere.  Like I said earlier, there were a couple of old relays sitting on the floor near the driver's seat, along with a couple of empty relay boxes, when we bought the RV.


Also...would this thing have a fuel pump in the fuel tank to get the fuel to the engine faster, or is it all mechanical from the injector pumps?


Kev

[Rickf1985]

Hard to say on the pump in the tank. Most have a pump externally which on a diesel is called a lift pump. If I remember correctly the lift pump on the 12 valve Cummins is on the left side of the engine (same side as the injection pump) towards the back of the engine about 6" above the oil pan. The injection pump will draw fuel on it's own once it is completely primed but if you lose the prime, as in a filter change, it will not pick it up.  In your case with it being in a motor home all bets are off as to what they did for pumps. I would suggest starting at the fuel filter and working back towards the tank and see what you find. If you get to the tank and do not find a pump along the way it is probably in the tank, the way to tell is the number of wires at the tank. You will normally have one or two wires for the fuel gauge sender and ground. Any more than that and you probably have a pump. Usually with a pump you will have different types of fittings and not just clamped hoses.
This is what the stock engine driven pump looks like.


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[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks Rick!  I'll let you know what I find out.  Might take me a while since I'll be busy building catapults the rest of the week.


Kev

[FarPoint]

I just saw this and hope you got it figured out. I know itââ,¬â,,¢s an old post but Iââ,¬â,,¢m going to jump in anyway - Iââ,¬â,,¢m in the marine industry and deal with Cummins engines regularly. Most of the 5.9, and 8.3 Cummins - up to 2005 anyway - have grid heaters on the intake.
Theyââ,¬â,,¢re a common source of problems as they run on 2 100 AMP relays, and weââ,¬â,,¢re in a salt water environment.
And they seem to always be mounted close to the bottom of the engine - near the bilge water so always getting corroded.
We change them out regularly. And do not buy them from Cummins.
Theyââ,¬â,,¢re easliy available for 25% of what Cummins wants.
Hope you have it sorted already, and I may be off target but Iââ,¬â,,¢m sure they share some similarities.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

I got it all figured out.  Turns out there was another, much smaller, fuel filter up near the top of the engine that I missed.  Once I changed that one out, I haven't had a starting issue since.


Kev