1989 Rockwood Prestige Class A - came for manuals, stayed to say hello

[RetroGrandma2]

Huge thanks for making repair manuals available in the shop!  We have been searching for manuals for 7 years.  I can't tell you how much this means to us.  We're having issues with our motorhome (long story) and these are exactly what we needed. 

[RockwoodMike]

Hi RetroGrandma2

You don't see to many Rockwood motorhomes. I have a 88 Driftwood..33 foot with the 460 Carb engine..John Deere chassis made in 1987.

The reason for mine being parked is the engine is worn out and won't pass California smog..Not sure what I am going to  do with it..When it was new, it was a high end coach..Now it has been sitting for a long time..

Mike

[RetroGrandma2]

Hey Mike! Thanks for the welcome! No, these Rockwood class A's are a rare breed to be still on the road. I've yet to see another one.

Yeah, the smog stuff. Tempting to just bypass all that egi mess! Causes no end of problems.  But then there's the states who really get their noses out of joint about vintage gasoline engines. 

Are you living in Cali?

[RockwoodMike]

Yes I live in California. Central Valley, near Fresno

There is no way that you can modify or remove any smog equipment on the engine..I have a 4180 Holley carb that was stock on this engine and to replace it with another is an immediate fail on the "Visual" part of the test..

No 6 cylinder is weak. It has very low compression and when it is idling during the exhaust emission test, that cylinder is not burning the fuel..causing high HC..Failed!!

So there it sits and the only solution is a rebuild..Not sure what to do next.

Here in California, you cannot add, subtract or modify in any way any of the smog equipment..

Mike 

[RetroGrandma2]

So, I just want to say that we can commiserate, on a very personal level with you.  In our past: we are both Cali natives, central valley, and Vacaville is "home" - but we're currently midwest transplants, 26 years now. Love our family, but glad we got out when we could.

We have had to pass smog on old vehicles in CA -- everything from a 1972 VW bus, to a 1984 Ford 9 passenger station wagon, and more.  Rebuilt lots of those engines ourselves. Passing smog nowadays.... I'm sad for you, dude.  Sounds like you've poured a lot of love into your Driftwood and it's heartbreaking to see her sit. 

[RockwoodMike]

When I bought the Driftwood it was back in 2004..I hit Ebay looking for service manuals and was able to score these 2..

I was thinking of scanning them to load up here..maybe Oz can make a little money on them to support the website..

I have one of those all in one desktop printer-scanner-copier type of machines and scanning to pdf is easy..

I will contact Oz and see what he has to say..

Mike

[RetroGrandma2]

Those look like they might be helpful manuals!

[RetroGrandma2]

Yesterday I stumbled onto another manual, Ford's Engine/Emissions- Diagnosis manual, volume H. Found it on archive.org, of all places!

Our motorhome has had a problem with backfiring intermittently; two repair shops replaced a number of ignition/ fuel/ exhaust parts, but because the Rockwood can't be hooked up to a computer, neither repair shop was able to take the time to track down the problem. So having all these manuals available should really organize us as we go through the checklists for our specific engine and chassis.

[RockwoodMike]

I am going to start scanning that service guide today. I have a free account at Dropbox that allows up to 2 GB of files to be uploaded to and then a link is created for someone like you to download the file..

Each page needs to be pulled from the book and then laid on the scanner..It goes pretty fast.

As for your engine running problems, A good shop can hook it up to a scope to see how the ignition system performs. Actually see how each cylinder is performing in relationship to the other cylinders.

Things like bad sparkplugs, wires , even if there is a vacuum leak that can be pick out because that cylinder will be lean effecting the sparkplug voltage that is required to fire that plug.

the scope will show all 8 sparkplug performance quality and that can lead you to  the problem of what is causing the poor running..

[RetroGrandma2]

That's great about the manual- thank you so much for investing the time in doing that! 

As far as a shop using a scope: what kind of scope? You'd think that since it had been at a Ford dealership shop, and then at a semi truck repair shop, that they'd have also thought of doing that if they could? I'm wondering if the engine doesn't have the ability for them to hook it up?

We own both OBD1 and OBD2 diagnosis modules. We had discussed seeing if we could hook the OBD1 up to the motorhome ourselves like we do with our old cars...

[RockwoodMike]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUShO72Grq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmGubcuzbtU

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324848372920?hash=item4ba278ccb8:g:gEIAAOSwoANhdhit&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwCWnMprjlgYTYy5RajPoO09E9xz%2Fkfgze89613UK%2B%2FHAR55BLWMLhalQcockJ52DgF%2Bto83TTuwA8yV0UhDELjaswGpqrM51S7SLSjd0yuFrhfTdHpwa8WopiM%2BEweSV7oOBkF4YSqjykYYJYfdNrWD1K58OO94p5ICgQFgN7%2FVSvjfGadnrXzORRo8HQiDGtmgCmL9MfSkZkaGkT%2BNz%2FV%2FEkjpgoRZ%2B6vF%2BnmsDRc8h0jsj9V0kwncDMnrps4Xskw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6rmz_q7Yg


Most shops use the computer interface that has a diagnostic computer that they hold in their hands that talks to the computer that runs the engine,

My motorhome has a carburetor..does yours?? Is it fuel injected??

If it is fuel injected then you can use the OBD1 (on board diagnostics) that plugs into the small engine computer..It will give you trouble codes to look at..

But if it is a carb engine,..no computer..and that is where this scope comes in..I have a Hantek 1008C that works with a desk top computer..It will analyze the ignition that ells you all sorts of troubles..

The 3rd link from Ebay is the scope that I bought and still learning how to use it..Steep learning curve..
But it will tell you so much more than just the OBD1 scan will do for you..

[RockwoodMike]

when you look at the ebay link for the Hantek scope you will see in the picture of it a coiled up electrical lead..That is what is used to clip on to your coil output wire that goes to your distributor and then the scope is able to show on your computer screen what the individual sparkplugs are doing..

It is like an EKG that a doctor hooks up to you to see how your heart is doing..It is pretty much the same thing with sparkplugs..

Like I said, there is a big learning curve but the basics can be used to help figure out things.

[RockwoodMike]

Being old school,the very first thing I would do if you asked me to look at the engine is..

Hook up a vacuum gauge to it..A vacuum gauge to the engine will tell you if you have any problems with a bad valve--intake or exhaust--with the engine running, if the gauge has a pulsing needle that is the same as the engine idling,chances are you have a bad valve..It should be a smooth needle reading..steady..at about 14-16 inches of vacuum..

Second thing I would do is a compression test..take all the sparkplugs out and see if you have a bad-low- compression like I have with #6 of my engine..You screw in a compression tester gauge into each cylinder sparkplug hole and see how well it reads..you test each cylinder one at a time..so you only need one tester..
Each cylinder should have about 110-130 PSI..my # 6 only had 60 on it..and why I can't pass the smog..

So you screw the tester into a cylinder..spin the engine with the starter for 15 second or so and see what the gauge reads..if one is low..then you are in deep with a problem..

You take all the spark plugs out to help the starter spin the engine easier..but you test each cylinder one at a time..so 8 individual tests spinning the engine

[RockwoodMike]

Here is a great screen shot about how a vacuum gauge to analyze your engine..bad valves..bad rings..carb out of adjustment..bunch of stuff

[Eyez Open]

You need to establish the fact your rv has tbi or carberation. That is critical.

Does this backfire occur at idle..does it occur while cruising or does it occur going uphill.

Does the backfire exit the exhaust or carb/tbi.

Back firing only occurs when a valve is open when it not supposed to be...or the ignition system/spark is firing at the wrong time.

You should have fuel injection, yes you can hook up your automotive scanners. That is your first priority...find the port.

Now I must ask have you plugged in your scanner and nothing happens?

[RockwoodMike]

Take a picture of your engine preferably from the inside the coach with the cover off of it looking down on the engine..It will tell a big story. A vacuum gauge and a compression test will tell much of the condition of the motor

I have a 1994 Ford E350 with the 460EFI and it has 8 fuel injectors to it. One for each cylinder..That is called MFI..Multiport fuel Injection

Please take that picture..

[Eyez Open]

Ahh Ford did not mess with tbi if I remember right, mpi right out of the box. Getting older is full of surprises.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Mike,
I already have a digital copy of the PC2109 manual so you do not need to copy it.  I will send it to Mark for the store.

Is there a P/N on that other manual?  Might be the one in the store already.

[RockwoodMike]

TM-1362   That is located on most of the pages. with different dates..Nov 87...June 86..

And some of the pages have PC 2109 and those pages involve chassis number identification

[RockwoodMike]

https://www.deeretractors.org/store/products/john-deere-vehicle-chassis-service-manual-tm1362-download/

John Deere has a digital copy for 40 dollars!!

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

That Hantek 1008C scope is handy with or without Fuel Injection.  Only 1 spark plug cable comes with the kit so I also purchased the extra cables that allow me to look at all 8 cylinders (1 per channel) at the same time.  I have used it on non OBD, OBD1, and OBD2 systems for different things like plugs, and sensors (Throttle, crank, cam, ABS, etc.)  This is a backyard mechanic sort of scope as shops typically have fancy expensive ones.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

We have the same manual in the site store for $14.95

John Deere Manual

I will have Mark add the  2109 one

[RockwoodMike]

We have the same manual in the site store for $14.95

Alright, well you saved me some work..That Hantek with the one cable can be clamped to the coil wire..and it will show a parade of the 8 cylinders firing away..that would use 1 channel..Then a second channel to monitor the primary of the coil..There is a bunch of videos on the tube about analyzing the display..What you can "scope" is all sorts of things..

I saw one demonstration of a amp clamp on the starter heavy gauge wire..It in essence was showing a comparable compression test because a low cylinder would not draw as much amperage and all the others were comparable..

Another was amp testing the electric fuel pump..showed that one of the armatures was burning out and the pump was ready to go out completely..

All showing everything on your desktop computer!!   

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

I had a chevy van with OBD 1 waste fire that had 3 coil pacs.  Needed the separate plug wires to help find a bad coil pac.

[RetroGrandma2]

My motorhome has a carburetor..does yours?? Is it fuel injected??

Yes, it has a carburetor, no it isn't fuel injected.

But if it is a carb engine,..no computer..and that is where this scope comes in..I have a Hantek 1008C that works with a desk top computer..It will analyze the ignition that ells you all sorts of troubles..

OK great, thanks for the ebay link; I don't know if my husband has one of those but I doubt it, or he'd likely have already used it.  I will show him the link and we'll get one.

Being old school,the very first thing I would do if you asked me to look at the engine is..

Yes, vacuum and compression tests were already on our list of things to check.  Thank you for the visual vacuum gauge sheet, I'll print that out and put it in my binder. 

You need to establish the fact your rv has tbi or carberation. That is critical.

It has a Holley carburetor.

Does this backfire occur at idle..does it occur while cruising or does it occur going uphill.

Intermittently under all 3 conditions. The warmer the engine gets, the more frequent the backfiring becomes.

Does the backfire exit the exhaust or carb/tbi.

The backfiring has exited from both exhaust and carb but seems primarily carb.

You should have fuel injection, yes you can hook up your automotive scanners. That is your first priority...find the port.

The engine is a 1987 Ford 460, prior to the switch to fuel injection in 1988. It is a hybrid: Holley carburetor with DuraSpark-II distributor.

Take a picture of your engine preferably from the inside the coach with the cover off of it looking down on the engine.

Here's a photo that may help: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BmgmYpXnUOJ9ahyqeAs7pn_Y8BPUFQU4/view?usp=drivesdk

That Hantek 1008C scope is handy with or without Fuel Injection.  Only 1 spark plug cable comes with the kit so I also purchased the extra cables that allow me to look at all 8 cylinders (1 per channel) at the same time.

Ah, thanks for that tidbit on extra cables.
**********

Figured I'd throw into the general conversation the list of repairs that have been done:

2017: Oil change & filter; replaced: all plugs & wires, cap & rotor, cleaned carburetor.
2018: trans filter kit; replaced: all 3 alternator belts, carburetor, acellerator pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump switch, fuel filter, ignition coil. Adjustments to linkage, float level, timing.
2019: replaced ech temperature sensor